I’d like to learn more about trans issues from a feminist perspective.

[TheCatsPaws]

Just that. I’ve considered myself a feminist for years but never really involved myself with trans issues because I’ve been of the opinion “each to their own”. But I’ve recently seen some concerning stuff and after asking on here why some women dislike “cis”, I’m very curious to learn more.

Currently going through a bad time and so would like to spend my bedrest learning. So does anyone have any introductory topics on this? Thank you.

Hiya
If you read any of the recent trans threads on here you will get lots of info.

Yeah those threads gave me lots of info on the word cis. I’d always assumed it the opposite to trans and not being trans, hadn’t thought about it, but after a couple of people explained it I think it’s fairly sexist.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/rebeccarc.com/2016/01/06/gender-is-not-a-binary/amp/

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/09/how-modern-addiction-identity-politics-has-fractured-left%3famp

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/purplesagefem.wordpress.com/2015/05/10/on-leaving-the-trans-cult/amp/

Not all feminists agree on this, although some will tell you to "hand in your membership card" if you don't come to one conclusion. Good luck, and I hope you find your bedrest as illuminating as I'm finding mat leave... I'm sure you don't need me to advise you to check sources. For everything.

Well, on the first page of FWR, a good starting place might be the Rose McGowan thread, because if you can watch that video of a man (who turns out to be a perve and has multiple accusations of molesting teenage girls being thrown his way on twitter) verbally attacking a woman for having the temerity to want to talk about her rape rather than "centering transwomen" without hitting peak trans, you probably never will. Then maybe move on to the peak trans thread. And the thread on the M Dean article by Sarah Ditum in New Statesman. Together with Janice Turner's latest article in the Times, drawing the parallel between "transwomen are women" and "I believe in transubstantiation."

By this stage you will be firmly on one side of the debate or the other - you will have either decided we are right and reached peak trans, or decided we are all TERFs and no amount of rational argument will dissuade you. (Sorry, I may be feeling a bit more arsey than usual, but between the male sexual perve verbally attacking Rose McGowan because her wanting to talk about being raped is "transphobic", and the Observer campaigning to get a male burglar whose MO is wanking into teenage girls knickers moved to a female prison - and some deluded women taking the side of the male perves, I find myself shorter on patience than normal.)

Oh, how entertaining. Cross post with one of the deluded women I mentioned.

I find myself leaning towards your side. I have nothing against trans people and don’t want to stop them living their lives however there’s a lot of talking over women and trying to centre women’s issues to trans women’s issues. Trans women’s issues are different issues and while trans women should be supported (no one should be raped or killed for who they are), I don’t see why this should come at the expense of women’s rights? That women have fought hard for over literal centuries to get?

It seems wrong to me. And that person harassing Rose McGowan is vile.

Yes, absolutely agree - trans identifying people's human rights should be backed to the hilt. People should be able to dress how they like, call themselves what they like, without the threat of discrimination or harrassment.

But transwomen are biologically male, they are, and remain men, so they don't get to have women's rights.

Just some light reading to get you started

Becca Reilly Coopers stuff is awesome, as is Purple Sage Fem

Third Way Trans also has some interesting blogs as does Miranda Yardley.

For me the issue isn't trans people, it's trans politics. I am not being forced to say something that's patently incorrect (trans women are a category of women, as are natal women. No. Trans women are a category of human as are natal women, natal men and trans men). Second I will not accept politics that puts women at risk, as a feminist I know that there is a sizeable minority of males that will abuse women and children vs. a tiny minority of females. I know that the authorities have put a lot of effort into safeguarding women and children. I am not going to accept any politics that rolls back the safety of women and children from male violence and the current trend for self id does just that.

I also am personally offended to be told that a feeling in someone's head is a more important characteristic of gender than my lactating, menstruating, slightly prolapsed body. And the inference that girl babies can identify out of being aborted or abandoned, girl children can identify out of FGM, women can identify out of needing contraception, abortion, being raped or abused because some man gets off on power over females. Fuck that "cis privilege" concept. Really

Exactly HairyBallTheorem. If a person who is a “man” wants to have a female name and live as a female, that’s fine. If they want to talk about specific issues they face, fine.

But they’re never going to deal with say, doctors not taking gynae conditions seriously leaving them to suffer for years, or being socialised to “be quiet”, or access to contraception or literally anything else that is specific to female people?

I’ve always supported trans people quietly as a “they’re not harming anyone” type thing but the thing that’s swung it for me is, as well as this constant talking over women I think, lesbians being harassed for not wanting to sleep with trans women. Bloody ridiculous.

I would say from a radfem perspective it is simply this - men are not women ergo feminism excludes men.

Most feminists, even the radfems, until fairly recently had allowed the boundaries of the above to have a little give, a little flexibility out of kindness towards dysphoric TIMs and empathy with TIFs.

Unfortunately the current transgender movement has taken that kindness and compromise, run with it and metaphorically pissed all over it.

So we are back to having to re-assert boundaries very firmly.

There is a lesbian, WOC blogger called sisteroutrider who has some really good written pieces sisteroutrider.wordpress.com

Thanks Quentin I’ll look at those.

Rebecca Reilly Cooper is indeed awesome - a philosopher with a razor sharp analytical mind clinically taking transactivist ideology apart, one irrational belief after another. (Probably a much needed corrective to my Saturday night rantings! I am analytical Monday to Friday, just the last couple of days have tipped me over into a fury which is clouding things somewhat. Seriously. "Marie" Dean and Andi Wassiface.)

I know what you mean hairy
Although I'm still not over this
www.belpernews.co.uk/news/missing-woman-dressed-as-man-seen-in-dronfield-1-7873949

What I don’t understand is why trans women even need female rights? Other than as HairyBallTheorem mentioned, their human rights, why do trans women need access to abortion? Or freedom from FGM?

I think I might be reaching peak trans...

I think it's important to draw a line between Trans as opposed to hardline Trans Rights Activist TIMs.

My trans friend, and by extension her other trans friends/support groups find the whole TRA position awful and with the potential to put ordinary Trans folk at risk. She has been called 'TruScum' on Twitter recently, which she was rightly upset and offended about. She's supposedly 'TruScum' because she was arguing in favour of GRC's, or being in the process of obtaining a GRC, as a benchmark for prison placements.

I will use people's preferred pronouns etc as basic manners (I loathe one of the shortenings of my real name and ask people not to use it, so it seems to me to be common courtesy), but am against self-id becoming legislation because it relies on 'gender' which is a social construct rather than a scientific fact. All of this is better explained by posters with more eloquence than me on the Feminist boards.

Weezol I keep flip-flopping back and forth between that perspective and the giving an inch means they (men) will always take a mile train of thought.

I want to be kind to dysphoric people but I can't help feeling that allowing someone legally to 'change' sex was a massive own goal that has given validity to the current nonsense.

I do have a lot of sympathy though for those who are attacked for being 'truscum' and are willing to accept they are biologically the sex they were born as.

Trans women’s issues are different issues

See that's the kind of perjorative language that'll get you labelled transphobic/a TERF... you've got to pretend that there is no difference; that they are the same as us.

Some of them no longer refer to themselves as transwomen; they are women and we are cis women. They've laughably tried to give us the prefix some of them even refer to themselves as cis women (what with cis neaning 'real' and all...)

Weezol I think I agree with you, tbh. Today I learned I am truscum in that I think to be trans you need dysphoria. I thought that was accepted.

TheCatsPaws
'Truscum' just shows up the trans activist agenda as being driven by Male Rights Activists, imvho. They don't care about transsexual people and have an agenda.

I dont think I'm the only woman here who has trans friends, relatives and neighbours. I haven't met a single feminist that has any issue with transsexuals;
but we cant see how to give biological men the legal right to self identify and access women's spaces and services, without also letting in predators.

Personally, I'm in favour of keeping the Gender Recognition Act, making gender identity a protected characteristic, and maintaining womens spaces and services for biological women.

I think where there are separate spaces or services for men and women, there should be a third all gender option for self identifying men, gender fluid men, and anyone else who feels comfortable using that space.

you have to be trans yourself to be "truscum"

if you're female then your views just make you a "terf"

I don't know what they call men who are not trans who disagree with them. they don't seem to concern themselves with that at all

they also have few words for the men who actually commit the violence against trans people around the world, instead preferring to attack women (especially lesbians who they harbour a particular hatred for). interestingly they often focus on the looks of the women they attack, accuse them of prudery, jealously, which totally makes them sound not like mras at all.

The people who actually do them harm - violent men - are a common problem but I have not seen them talking much about what to do about it.

In fact they like to state global murder stats which mainly are driven by tims in prostitution, often poc, often in south america. yet rather than talking about what to do about that, with all the different issues, and why these men are murdering and what can be done, they attack feminists in places like uk who are not murdering anyone, and claim it is our words that are driving the murder rate. This is the most spectacular obfuscation of the agent in this that I've ever seen, when you think about it. they NEVER mention the men who are beating killing etc. They ALWAYS blame women.

just writing that it's become clear that yes these tras, they do just hate women.

"The people who actually do them harm - violent men - are a common problem but I have not seen them talking much about what to do about it. "

Didn't finish this thought properly.

it's a problem they have in common with women - and children and men - violent men. They are the main issue for feminists - the violence committed against women and girls all over the world every day. If they wanted to fight this they could join with us.

But they're not actually interested in that, so they don't.

In fact they prefer to look the other way, simply picking the stats up when they want to try to coerce a lesbian into getting a proper fucking with some ladydick.

UpABitLate I’m a TERF then because I completely agree with everything that’s been said here. And that’s a very good post, I actually haven’t ever seen TRA bashing violence committed by men, just women and lesbian women for wanting their spaces.

Quentin, that New Statesman piece about identity politcs is superb, thanks for posting.