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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

AIBU to feel concerned for my ordinary trans friend

39 replies

Amoregentlemanlikemanner · 02/02/2018 20:48

She transitioned years ago, is well known in certain circles not for being trans but for her professional achievements, gently supports other trans people but wouldn’t tell a women’s group what their agenda should be nor attempt to speak on women’s issues.
And yes chopped off her male genitalia and endured lots of ops
Has spent years rebuilding family relationships and is happier
Would prefer to use the women’s toilet and would feel unsafe in the men’s (has been attacked/had stuff thrown).

Where does this polarised debate leave ordinary people like her?

OP posts:
HairyBallTheorem · 02/02/2018 20:54

It's a recurring theme on this board, Lurker . Genuine trans people are being thrown under the bus along with women. We've got a number of trans posters on here (Curry, Transhobbit, Pidgeon, Harve) who agree about that.

The really silly thing was we had a compromise system that worked pretty well most of the time - if you had dysphoria and were serious about presenting in the way society associates with the opposite sex, you could get a GRC. And most women were pretty polite and accommodating towards transwomen in, say, toilets. It's the massive push towards self ID together with the insistence that transwomen are literally, indistinguishably women, so should have access to women's sport, women's prisons, women's rape crisis and domestic violence shelters, that's causing women to have to push back against this stuff. We didn't want this fight - we've been happily coexisting with the genuinely trans for decades. But self ID means there's just too much to lose.

HairyBallTheorem · 02/02/2018 20:55

Sorry, don't know how I turned Like into Lurker! Fat fingers and bonkers phone.

OvaHere · 02/02/2018 20:56

Your friend sounds like the people who were once known as transexual. Unfortunately the newer activist movement of transgender ideology is as damaging for people like your friend as it is for women and girls.

There are a few vocal transwomen who sound similar to your friend. Miranda Yardley and Debbie Hayton are ones that I know of, they both have blogs I think. There are also a couple of like minded transwomen who post here.

I don't really know where it leaves your friend because it must be difficult to speak out against the grain when you have spent many years trying to live quietly and not draw attention to your trans status.

Primarkismyonlyoption · 02/02/2018 21:04

The polarised debate is not representative of most trans people. It has become a playform for people, mostly men with agendas, and these are the ones criticising terms such as 'mother'. Similarly perverts in prison wanting transfers to womens prisons.
I know transwomen who have transitioned and who quietly get on with life and feel theatened as you say in male environments.
Unfortunately many of the loudest voices are misogynist freaks who take issue with any rights women have to create safe spaces and they are and will continue to ruin things for real trans people who are going to become objects of abuse and hate.

Primarkismyonlyoption · 02/02/2018 21:07

And btw, jeremy corbyn on sunday let down every woman in the uk with his comments on gender identification. He needs shaking and is a coward who shouldnt be in politics if he cannot make decisions and back them up. Him or theresa may. Dire choices. At least cameron had a backbone and balls.

mummybear701 · 02/02/2018 21:46

I have 2 such friends myself, 1 late 30s and 1 is only 20, one of the youngest fully transitioned. They share your anger at what they are being lumped in with.

But what about another one who is pre-op but nevertheless quietly goes about their business presenting as female and understands they can't be treated as female 100% of the time.

Geronimoleapinglizards · 02/02/2018 22:01

I feel worried too op. The vocal TRA's telling people on twitter to suck their ladydick and that TERF's should die in a fire are doing people with gender dysphoria no favour at all. I think transsexuals need to speak up more, ideally and voice this but I can understand why that would feel massively intimidating.

HairyBallTheorem · 02/02/2018 22:04

Not only intimidated - there is also an aspect of why the hell should they have to? (It's a bit like the constant demands for Muslims to distance themselves from ISIS). My trans friends are certainly nothing like the transwhacktivists on twitter, and shouldn't have to point that fact out.

The problem is that the politicians are listening to the transwhacktivists to the exclusion of sane trans people like Miranda Yardley.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 02/02/2018 22:08

I'm as worried about the potential fallout for trans people from all this as I am the fallout for women and girls.

We're all being thrown under the bus for the benefit of autogynophiles, sex offenders and misogynists.

UpstartCrow · 02/02/2018 22:09

Well exactly. The activists are doing actual transsexual people no service at all. Its one reason I dont support gender self identification.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 02/02/2018 22:39

The only answer is the option of unisex facilities along with male and female

Becuase is it fair that some who have transitioned can pass and others can’t can they not feel the same

It’s sounds unfair but is it fair that women are left in a position where they are unsure, feel uncomfortable becuase they suspect

There will be probably many more men transitioning but it doesn’t matter how many operations, hormone replacement medications
taken you can’t change your sex and this is what seperates us

And I agree the trans movement at the moment isn’t help all trans people but I am sure some are feeling now they have a platform

Primarkismyonlyoption · 02/02/2018 23:15

I do feel that it is highly inappropriate to politically protect and promote through policy and law, the intrusion into womens toilets, changing rooms, prisons, hostels, refuges and anywhere else, by biological men with penises. Oh and POSTNATAL WARDS.
One on one considerations are totally different to JC's sympathising with transphobia and letting any man openly enter womens spaces without question. Its disgusting and deplorable.

Italiangreyhound · 02/02/2018 23:15

@Amoregentlemanlikemanner like many here I share your concerns about trans people.

I hope common sense can prevail.

Battleax · 02/02/2018 23:17

Are there any groups for gender critical transwomen to flock together in?

Myunicornfliessideways · 02/02/2018 23:26

share your concerns. It's one of the things that makes me so angry about this TRA agenda, it's as damaging to trans people as to women and the TRAs don't care or pay the slightest attention to their voices any more than women's.

Equally they damage trans teenagers and young adults. A friend of a friend is a young transman who is struggling with mental health difficulties and ive watched them being brainwashed on Reddit by the cult. They've just started hormones having been drilled in how to get reluctant medics to sign it off, they've been encouraged to detach from their family and reject them. Watching their suffering get worse and the train wreck ahead is horrible.

Italiangreyhound · 02/02/2018 23:42

@Myunicornfliessideways "They've just started hormones having been drilled in how to get reluctant medics to sign it off, they've been encouraged to detach from their family and reject them. Watching their suffering get worse and the train wreck ahead is horrible."

You are so right it is a cult. Maybe there are cult survivors who can share how they got out and what it means.

Italiangreyhound · 02/02/2018 23:46

By cult survivors I mean people wrongly encouraged to transition. I do not mean genuine transsexuals.

TheButterflyOfTheStorms · 03/02/2018 00:19

Transsexuals, women in general and lesbians in particular are being thrown under the bus for this agenda. Good luck to her but I think it's going to get worse, for everyone.

GrockleBocs · 03/02/2018 00:25

I think that your friend will be a casualty, yes. It's vital that their voice is heard. They have been living quietly as a woman as most women do. The new variety of TRA/AGP have hijacked their lived experience as much as womens' experience. And it does us all harm

Xenophile · 03/02/2018 00:51

I have a few transsexual friends also, one in their 60s is particularly worried because they’ve never passed too well and age is not being kind to them. They are so much happier in themselves since they transitioned years ago, but they’re now worried that the social compact whereby women were kind may go.

The whole basis of the recent trans agenda is to a) ensure that feminists are forced to centre the most vocally violent of them and have to put vital feminist activism on the back burner and b) will fuck up women and transsexuals lives irreparably.

bobthebuddha · 03/02/2018 01:12

YANBU, OP. I’ll lay my cards out: have never had the remotest issue with trans rights from the early 80s, when I became aware of them through reading about Tula in my sister’s Cosmo magazines through to when I went to Leelah Alcorn’s vigil in London & saw the very real distress on the faces of the trans folk there. The high levels of depression, suicide attempts etc are very real. But things have shifted very dramatically recently and the furore over self-id and the screaming down of anyone who tries to say ‘hold on, we need to DISCUSS this’ is scary.

Was reading an interesting interview recently with Tamsin Sutherland (themselves trans and who I haven’t heard of before), who said this:

“The battle lines, politically-speaking, appear to be the sanity of those that understand we fall outside of the norm, and merely seek societal empathy for the accident of our birth, versus those that seem keen to use the power of their ability to CHOOSE to ‘identify’ as transgender as a societal cosh with which they can beat society into a different shape.”

and:

“In my opinion, the highly laudable attempts of the old school LGB community to gain parity in society have been thoroughly co-opted now by those for whom the postmodernist screed is all important. The ‘T’ of Transsexual quickly gave way to standing for ‘transgender’ and that’s when the trouble started. They hijacked the transsexual narrative, overtly co-opted our pain to book society on a guilt trip, and then thoroughly infiltrated the entire community with ‘queer theory’, again; straight out of the postmodernists’ handbook......The next generation down are being transed at ever increasing rates and it IS actually deeply homophobic. Right down to the age of four now, any sign of gender nonconformity is the green light to a lifetime of medical intervention.

At who’s (sic) cost?”

Corbyn et al are rushing into this to appear ‘ahead of the law’ without stopping to consider the ever present problem of the ‘law of unintended consequences,’ just as they did when they pushed through their Gambling Act and told those who raised concerns that they were being ‘elitist.’ That was an incredibly regressive act on their part, with the consequence of gambling addiction increasing (at what cost to children of addicts ffs?). The consequence of throwing aside the sensible GRC approach for self-id alongside the rush to chemically cosh and physically alter children with no option of reversal could be utterly catastrophic. It is NOT ‘transphobic’ to be concerned about this! Are we rushing to erase lesbian and gay people as well? That seems to be on the agenda here. And yes, many, many trans people like your friend will be shoved under the bus.

The drive to drug children at ever increasing rates benefits Big Pharma more than anyone else. I thought Corbyn et al were anti-corporatist? Or does the opportunity to virtue-signal override everything else? Rupert Everett said he was desperate to be female as a child but is grateful the world then wasn’t as now because he’d have been shoved on drugs, but after the age of 15 he never wanted to be female any more. He was slated for it.

Primarkismyonlyoption · 03/02/2018 12:09

I think any doctor prescribing hormone treatments to reverse puberty will be subject to immense criticism when in the future the diseases arising fro. This become apparent. In the form of cancers and development disorders, memtal health issues and infertility.
My childs teacher would be delighted at the thought of a trans child. Many of those pro self id people have agendas of their own.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 03/02/2018 12:18

I feel for individuals like your friend too. I would be pleased to join with them in solidarity against the current madness. I will call them 'she' and respect them. But I won't fight their battles for them.

TransPortFormerlyCherie · 03/02/2018 13:28

I've been thinking about a parallel to all this, hope it's ok to share.

I used to work as a carer, and looked after one lady with advanced dementia who had a doll that she held as if it was a real baby. She'd looked after a lot of babies in her time so I presume it was related. Anyway, we would carefully hold the doll, lay it down gently etc, "playing along" to some extent. Not in a condescending way, but out of genuine respect for her life experieces and kindness towards her illness.

I was never going to wave the doll around screaming "It's a doll not a baby!"
But if you'd asked me, really truly do you believe it's a real baby? Of course not!

And if it reached a point where it really mattered that it wasn't a real baby - say, if I was expected to run back into a burning building to save it - then I'm going to be honest and say NO. Too far.

Women have been pushed until we have to stand up and be blunt about where the line is. TRAs have made the line matter.

Battleax · 03/02/2018 13:30

It's a good analogy.

We're at the point where most people haven't seen the fire yet and think we're just being mean by standing on the driveway asserting that the doll isn't a baby.

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