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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Any remaining WEP members - leadership elections

29 replies

Cwenthryth · 01/02/2018 12:27

I am a founder member of WEP, and was very excited by the promise of a feminist party. Along with many others I stopped my membership due to WEP’s dreadful interactions on here, and the fact that they were fast becoming the laughing stock of feminism due to their inability to define a woman and their support for a violent trans offender (with their ‘7 inch surprise’) being transferred to the women’s estate. I have since renewed my membership, feeling that pushing change from the inside may be a more productive strategy.

If anyone else is still a WEP member, the leadership elections provide an opportunity to get the issues around self-identification and safeguarding sex-segregated spaces openly debated within the party. So I thought it might be good to have a thread on here to discuss how we may be able to do this.

So far I have responded to the email about leadership debates by submitting a question for the candidates - what is a woman?. Unfortunately I’m not able to attend the debate - they always announce these things with frustratingly short notice for those of us who work long hours to get time off to attend!

Am I the only WEP member left on here? I know there a lot of ex members!

OP posts:
WiggyPig · 01/02/2018 12:32

I'm still a member.

And still hopeful for them - they don't fulfil every one of my feminist dreams but at the same time nor do any of the other parties. At least WEP are still committed to ending demand for the sex industry and looking properly at equal pay, equal representation, childcare etc.

Original poster
Cwenthryth · 01/02/2018 13:32

Absolutely agree Wiggy, that’s why I rejoined. How do you feel about the party’s approach so far to self-ID?

OP posts:
CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 01/02/2018 14:04

There are a lot of politically homeless gender critical women around St the moment. I'd join WEP if I thought they gave a shiny shit about my actual biological female life.

Battleax · 01/02/2018 14:11

Is there any real hope of them rethinking self id?

Original poster
Cwenthryth · 01/02/2018 16:20

Hope? I think there has to be. Because none of the other policies - all focusing on real issues women face due to biology make any sense under self-declaration.

(I am trying to remember to use self-declaration rather than self-identification.... not very well it seems)

I don’t know who is on the steering committee, apart from Sophie Walker, Catherine Meyer and Sandi Toksvig. There should be 15 other WEP members on there, and any of us can stand. Any member can propose a motion for party conference too, as a group of 20 or more members.

I’m thinking that ‘definition of woman’ debate is not so useful, though, as other threads on here lately have discussed. Like with the approach A Woman’s Place is taking. I’d love for WEP to endorse their demands.

OP posts:
womanhuman · 01/02/2018 16:33

I think it’s telling how few responses there are on this thread...

Original poster
Cwenthryth · 01/02/2018 16:39

I know, very depressing from my POV!

OP posts:
RNBrie · 01/02/2018 16:43

I'm going to the leadership debate and have been thinking a lot about this.

I think the "define a woman" thing is too confrontational as an approach. I also think it's way too complicated to deal with in that sort of forum. I know the Mumsnet hard line on trans women, and although I tend towards agreeing, it doesn't sit entirely well with me.

I was wondering if there was a question in there somewhere that I could ask about the Labour All Women Short List issue but haven't formulated it properly in my head.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 01/02/2018 16:47

The Mumsnet hard line?

'Please leave things the way they are'?

Fucking radical that...

OvaHere · 01/02/2018 16:56

I would love to support a party like the WEP if they had firm boundaries about it putting natal women front and centre.

Whilst they are being wishy washy and appeasing on trans issues though I know this will not happen. What is likely to happen without those firm boundaries is that a movement with Women in the title will be catnip for TIF's and in no time will probably be taken over in the same way Stonewall and GLAAD have been.

I have a degree of sympathy for the founders because they chose a poor climate to get something like the WEP off the ground and are no doubt stuck between wanting to achieve something meaningful and trying to avoid being bogged down in endless legal battles with aggressive males.

OvaHere · 01/02/2018 16:57

*sorry that should read TIM's. I lose myself sometimes in the jargon.

Battleax · 01/02/2018 16:58

(I am trying to remember to use self-declaration rather than self-identification.... not very well it seems)

Oh hold on, side issue but why? What have I missed?

UpstartCrow · 01/02/2018 16:59

Were WEP members asked if they were ok with supporting self ID? Was there a vote?
Is it possible to overturn that?

RNBrie · 01/02/2018 17:05

My biggest issue with discussing any of this on mumsnet is that you can't have a differing opinion, even slightly, without getting the shit kicked out of you. That's what I mean about "hard line".

I don't think there is a simple solution to the self-id question - I can see both sides even if I tend to agree with one more than the other.

I didn't go to the one and only WEP conference so I don't know if it was discussed there but there has certainly not been a self-id debate that I am aware of.

Jigglytuff · 01/02/2018 17:06

I quit and haven't rejoined. The support for Tara Hudson was my main issue but there were other things too. Mainly, the push for men to stay overnight on post-natal wards is also a massive issue for me - it's so achingly middle class to assume that all male partners are lovely, plus there's the issue with facilities/NHS.

I was also really annoyed because all my local meetings happened in the evenings at 6pm. Basically, that suited the local rep but took no account of single mothers or SAHMs. I emailed and explained that time was difficult for me and why but she didn't even have the decency to reply Angry

Original poster
Cwenthryth · 01/02/2018 17:20

I’m not aware of any open debate within the party either. Initial policies were written by various groups and there were consultations, you could submit answers to various questions but I don’t remember self-ID being one of them.

The self-declare vs self-id terminology I picked up somewhere on here, or perhaps on Twitter, as challenging someone’s identity basically doesn’t come across well 2 its very personal and confrontational. And actually I don’t want to challenge anyone’s identity - identify as whatever you feel comfortable with, whatever gets you through. I don’t however support anyone’s right to then legally self-declare as the opposite sex, and therefore gain access to sex-segregated spaces, based on their subjective identity.

OP posts:
Original poster
Cwenthryth · 01/02/2018 17:34

Basically, I’d like to raise the issue for discussion within the party, and think that the leadership elections are a good time to do so.

However after Heather Brunskell-Evans was ‘investigated’ for expressing gender critical views on the moral maze, I do wonder whether there is some shadowy self-ID lobby hidden in the inner sanctum somewhere.

OP posts:
RNBrie · 01/02/2018 17:42

I agree I'd like to see a rational open debate about it. There's going to be another conference in Sept which I think is more appropriate place to try and have it.

Original poster
Cwenthryth · 01/02/2018 17:51

Given how much the issue is in the mainstream media now I sincerely hope it comes up at conference!

But surely asking the leadership candidates their views (all two of them, and seeing as no one knows who Magda is*, it’s a all a bit irrelevant anyway) is reasonable. And for the issue to come up at conference, a big enough contingent of members need to support and propose the debate.

*sorry Magda. You seem lovely.

OP posts:
CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 01/02/2018 18:38

getting the shit kicked out of you

Really?

I don't think it's true that there are no differing opinions here. But perspectives are all feminist and women centred. As you might expect. And those that aren't are challenged. As you might expect.

And I think the debate here is robust but for me your characterisation of it as above is just wrong and not particularly helpful.

RNBrie · 01/02/2018 20:33

In fairness I wasn't really aiming to be helpful. I was expressing my opinion based on what I've seen on multiple threads. We can have differing views on what constitutes "robust" debate as well.

Op, I think the leadership debate will have time limited questions and you'll get nothing more than a canned answer along the lines of "it's a complex issue and we need to focus on the similarities that bring us together rather than the differences that keep us apart" which is the response I've had every time I've raised the issue.

I've met Magda, she's an experienced campaigner on a number of issues but she doesn't really want to win. She knew if she didn't stand there would be no debate and that was important to her as well as a lot of members of the party. I think she's fairly confident she won't win! Nice lady though.

Original poster
Cwenthryth · 01/02/2018 21:05

I think the leadership debate will have time limited questions and you'll get nothing more than a canned answer

Good point. Sigh. It’s all so frustrating!

Although it’s nice to know I’m not the only one who’s sticking with the party for now though.

OP posts:
RNBrie · 01/02/2018 21:48

There are a few WEP members around. They pop up every now and again but it doesn't usually end very well so I think mostly they keep quiet Grin

HawkeyeInConfusion · 01/02/2018 23:20

I briefly considered joining WEP. Then discovered their stance on self-id and promptly binned the idea.

BewitchedBotheredandBewildered · 01/02/2018 23:25

Me too.