Transphobia.... or misogyny?

[InionEile]

Just read this today and it gave me pause for thought.
www.lennyletter.com/story/karla-avelar-el-salvador-trans-rights-movement

The journalist reports on South America and feminist issues and I read her a lot. I thought that her piece on transwomen in El Salvador facing violence because of their gender identity was misleading, however. She says they face violence due to transphobia and the transwomen claim that also. Yet at the end, she speaks to a transman who says he has not experienced any hatred because of his transition and is actually congratulated because of it:

He says that he has experienced no violence and little discrimination and laments, “I wish life were easier for trans women. People congratulate trans men when they transition, but they kill trans women.”

Isn't this an issue of misogyny and femicide rather than transphobia? The transwomen she interviews are hated because they have transitioned to being women and the society they live in is deeply misogynist.
In El Salvador, Girls Are A Problem

It makes me wonder when we see all these statistics about how trans individuals are at the greatest risk of violence and need our protection - how much of it is in fact misogyny directed at men who choose to be female, rather than transphobia?

The issues faced by transwomen reflect how misogynist our society still is rather than showing how transphobic it is. To my mind, that means that feminists should have the support of trans individuals rather than the entire feminist movement being hijacked to focus on the specific issues of 'transphobia' faced by trans-identified males.

No it isnt. Men don't perceive trans women as women, they perceive them as effeminate men. In many US states, gay panic is a permissible defence against killing a trans person.

So what's wrong with being an effeminate man? Men (or women) are not killing 'manly' women so the implication is that the hatred stems from something to do with femininity itself - and that's misogyny, not transphobia.

Is homophobia also misogyny?

I would say it technically is homophobia but the root of much homophobia is misogyny.

InionEile
Where did I say there's anything wrong with being effeminate?
Men do kill masculine men as well. Men kill children and men kill women.

The problem is men kill people, not how those people identify.

I think it's homophobia. The sort of 'man' that would attack a transwoman doesn't see them as actual women but as a threat to his heterosexuality.

Sorry, Upstart, I wasn't referring to you but the mindset of the men who attack effeminate men as in 'Hmm... I wonder what could be wrong with being effeminate....' IYSWIM.

In my view, the hatred of effeminate men compared to the acceptance shown towards masculine women ultimately reflects misogyny that underlies everything in our current society.

If it's homophobia Halebeke, then why does the transman interviewed not experience the same homophobia?

The hatred shown towards male homosexuals has always been more extreme than the hatred shown towards lesbians (who seem historically to have been viewed as 'silly women' who just needed a good man to sort them out) - but that again is a factor of the misogyny in our broader society. Men are hated if they are too effeminate. Women who act up to become men are respected even if they may sometimes also face ridicule or prejudice.

Trans men don't get the same hostility from men as lesbians who present as females and are sexually unavailable to men.
The reaction lesbians get is homophobia.

Men can see that transmen are women, and dont feel threatened by them, they aren't rivals.
If they are sexually attracted to them they can reason they are 'actually' women.

Men are frequently very violent to lesbnians. There was a really nasty attack last year where one woman had her front teeth knocked out. This year, a lesbian was locked in the trunk of a car that was set on fire.

I would say the root of a lot of homophobia is actually the fear of male violence. Men know that as a class they are the ones who predominantly carry out sexual assault. The vast majority of their victims are women - but when they come across a man who is attracted to other men, it suddenly dawns on them that if this man is one of the non-negligible minority of men who get off on sexual violence, they might not be able to fight them off.

I don't think homophobia stems from seeing gay men as women (and hence practicing a form of misogyny), I think it stems from seeing gay men as men just like them, who might have the same penchant for sexual violence that they do.

HairyBallTheorem thats interesting. It does explain the ''backs to the wall lads/forcing it down my throat'' type comments.

I think many straight men view gay men as less than men because it's assumed they take a receptive sexual role which they think is shameful. Viewing a sexually receptive role as shameful or weak comes from a position of misogyny in my opinion.

It harks back to the men and non men argument.

Seeing a position as a weakness comes from hierarchical thinking. Thats what underpins fascism/right wing thinking. Its also why women ally themselves with right wing men, to move up a perceived hierarchy.

Also I don't think there is a singular correct view here as such. There are a few angles to it. There is also an element of not liking being on the receiving end of male gaze and objectification.

I think it's overwhelmingly homophobia, too.

This is why we shouldn't be classifying hate crimes on the perception of the victim. TIMs are known for wishful thinking.

I think it absolutely comes from a fear of being treated as they behave.

I believe it is because men consider all women possible sexual partners. They evaluate them, or reject them on the strength of their looks. It is deeply disturbing to straight men that they are expected to consider transwomen as women and consider them as sexual partners when men believe transwomen are women only up to the point they are potential sexual partners.

True, homophobia has complex factors in play - fear, disgust, basic prejudice and so on. There is no single motivation. I would bet, however, that the overlap in the Venn diagram between misogynists and homophobes is fairly large. Both stem from the same root of hatred of The Other.

What is interesting to me in the articles I linked to is that El Salvador has a major problem with femicide and misogynistic violence but the article isolates the violence experienced by the transwomen as something unique to their trans identity.

It's not their 'trans'-ness that attracts violence, it's their femininity. The transman she interviews is congratulated for having transitioned.

It's homophobia plus misogyny in the event that they "pass" and the fact that a huge number of transwomen in South America work as prostitutes. Trans activists don't want to admit this because a lot of the pressure they put on people/organizations hinges on the idea that trans women are a uniquely and disproportionately targeted group because of "transmisogyny", and most of them are ideologically committed to the idea that "sex work" is "empowering".

The more toxic the masculinity the more overt the view of female as something demeaning and much lesser than male, and the higher the drive to repress it and drive it out of men.

In this country, if you work with young children, you never have problems with parents about their toddler daughters playing with tractors or tool kits and putting on toy hard hats. You frequently have problems with parents about their toddler son putting on a princess dress or playing with a doll. When you follow that problem through it's never the mother who has the issue: at the base of it is a freaked out father. When you dig down into the why and the 'you'll turn him gay', what they actually mean is 'you're not turning my son into a low status male who'll be picked on and derided by higher status males'. Anything associated with female is demeaning. To dress like one. To even touch or play with toys showing 'girly' qualities is seen to smear a boy. Its empowering for girls to be boy like; it's disgraceful for boys to be girl like.

Many of the young men identifying as trans aren't effeminate in the way that camp men have always been in the gay community. In fact some of the naturally very camp older gay men now won't go near gay community events because of how they're treated for being effeminate. However these young men in the western world who are identifying as women are low status males, who would be at the bottom of the pecking order with other men of their age group, and not well treated by or of interest to women of their age group if they were competing with other men.

No it isnt. Men don't perceive trans women as women, they perceive them as effeminate men. In many US states, gay panic is a permissible defence against killing a trans person.

Yes. I would say that most hatred (almost exclusively from men) directed at transwomen is homophobia, rather than misogyny. Homophobia or just general hatred for being different.

If it's homophobia Halebeke, then why does the transman interviewed not experience the same homophobia?

Transmen are probably read as lesbians most of the time. Men tend to be a lot more 'ok' with lesbians than gay men. If the transman 'passes' and are read as a man, then obviously thats why they do not experience hatred. If a transwoman passes and is actually read as a woman (not many do) then it could be misogyny I guess. Just its so rare to fine a transwoman who does pass in real life, outside of carefully posed photos and such.