Self-id isn't women vs transwomen. It is daughters, mothers, wives, sisters vs predatory men.

[Biologicalreality]

So many people I talk to seem unaware of the GRA and the fact that so many political parties seem to have self-id as a policy.

I have come to the depressing conclusion that this is because the debate is framed as women vs transwomen. So men, if they are not transwomen, don't really think it is anything to do with them.

How can we shed more light on the fact that self-id would allow predatory men to:

Force female security guards to body search them, just by saying they were a woman.

Be on a women's ward in a hospital

And also opportunistic men to:
Win races (and prize money) in women's sport

Obviously the list goes on.

It feels very non-feminist. But posing the question 'would you want your daughter to be forced to body search a man who was putting her through this for a dare' might make more men pay attention?

It crosses parties and people. It just needs careful framing to get people on board. The main problem is no one realises how far reaching and damaging Self Id is.

Mainly because every debate is shut down.

I don't think we need to make those arguments. People in general know TIMs are not women when they see it.

Recently I have been wondering why there isn't a backlash, why everyone except MN is going along with the TRA rhetoric. I have a wide range of friends, peers and colleagues. They know I am a "safe space", I won't hate on your beliefs, I will always want to understand. So I have been testing the waters to see where people stand and why.

The results? They have no fucking clue whatsoever about trans anything.

I ask what they think about the weightlifting, kickboxing, cycling, basketball wins by TIMs. I ask what they think of Labour's new women's officer (without saying anything about the women's officer being a TIM).

With sports they think I've been at the alternative news, of the Freddie Starr ate my hamster variety. I have been laughed at for believing such obviously fake news. I show reliable reporting and photos of the sportspeople and the overwhelming reaction is disbelief because something so obviously wrong can't be happening. They kind of disengage because it is so implausible. Men are far more outraged about the sporting "unfairness" than women according to my anecdata.

As for the Labour Party, well, Harriet Harman's women's officer isn't she? A bit loony sometimes but mostly sensible. What, she's not? Lily who?

Nobody outside terf and tra echochambers seems to have a clue that Lily exists, never mind being women's officer for the labour party. On reflection, why would they? She isn't in the mainstream media. I haven't heard her once this month on a news programme talking about the impact of brexit on women, the impact of the shortage of GPs and midwives (who are often women and are used by women), the impact on women of Syria, the Weinstein stuff, girl's attainment in exams compared to the world, state run childcare options, the England women's football team new manager. Nothing. She is nowhere.

She isn't doing the job of women's officer and so nobody outside the echo chambers has a clue she exists, never mind what she believes.

I would get a lot more sports stories in the press, which is always hard but maybe a photo of a TIM next to a standard female athlete will appeal to the papers.

I think we should demand that Lily does her bloody job! Ignore trans and ask her opinions on everyday politics that people care about. Her total lack of competence will soon come out, people will see that the emperor has no clothes.

My DH is in the knee flashing , funny handshake brigade. He is very aware of the dangers of self ID. I wonder if I self ID as a man and try to join , how much sh%t it would stir up , how many men would realise what was going on and join the fight got against self identifying

With sports they think I've been at the alternative news, of the Freddie Starr ate my hamster variety. I have been laughed at for believing such obviously fake news. I show reliable reporting and photos of the sportspeople and the overwhelming reaction is disbelief because something so obviously wrong can't be happening. They kind of disengage because it is so implausible. Men are far more outraged about the sporting "unfairness" than women according to my anecdata

I get this reaction a lot..people thinking I have fell for 'fake news'. They are horrified when they realize its actually happening. Rapists in female prisons has been the worst one for me. Was literally laughed at and called a loon over that one. They sharp changed their tune though

Transgender women in sports are my 'thing'

Look up Fallon Fox v Tammika Brents.

www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/a-bloody-punch-to-the-nose-and-you-quickly-realize-ladies-cant-compete-agai

Lily Madigan isn't THE women's officer for the Labour Party, though, just one particularly ineffective officer for a constituency Labour Party. I suspect most people haven't heard of any other CLP women's officers either.

I seem to know several people who had not even heard of transgenderism till I mentioned it. I find this hard to credit, but it genuinely seems to have whizzed past heads in a sort of 'who are the Beatles anyway?' fashion.

One friend thought 'it' was 'something to do with that Olympic runner Castor Something, wasn't it, poor girl'?

Another (and we're talking CEO level here, so not dim) murmured that he'd heard that there were a lot of conditions we used not to know about, and the company probably had policies on them these days, glad it wasn't his job, sounded bloody complicated.

You would expect most parents to have heard it mentioned by their children, but honestly, the younger ones probably all believe that actual sex change is possible (because they've been told it is), and the teenagers look uneasy because they know that you aren't supposed to discuss it.

So I'm dubious about surveys that say that '25% of people support changes to the GRA, 50% think it's fine as is, 25% think it goes too far', unless someone can prove that the people surveyed knew what the question was.

slight correction, Lilly Madigan is the womens office for a CLP (constituency labour party - ie local area) and not the Labour Party itself. So not necessarily a position from which you'd generally expect national news media to be covering what they say.

but in all other respects, Rabbit yes, I don't think the general public have a clue what is going on.

There's been a survey carried out?

I agree. I've had some initial conversations with several friends. No-one has any awareness if what's happening, and if I start talking about the real consequences of self id, men in women's groups they look at me like I am barmy.

You can't discuss this. Any attempt to is shut down with howls about transphobia and hate.
Simply saying "trans women are not women " in public is enough to put your job in danger for a lot of people.

Whenever I mention anything about it, for example in sport or women's prisons or women's refuges I am met with disbelief "don't be stupid, you can't believe everything you read on the internet " or the mantra "trans women are women #nodebate"

People in general know TIMs are not women when they see it

This. I think we need to stop engaging with the transwomen are women thing on the grounds that it's self-evident bollocks. Arguing with it gives it a legitimacy it really doesn't deserve.

We need to start talking about how the real problem here is men being exclusionary of non-masculine males. Its 2018, people should be able to wear, do and be what they like without anyone telling them they need a sex change.

I don't talk about this in real life, ever.

DH has discussed it with colleagues. Male liberal types. More hipster than a hipster.

Apparently jaws dropped and disbelief and horror expressed.

I'm waiting for the next Olympics.

I really hope a male person (one who can be evidenced as being a boy and competing as a male, not an intersex person) wins a high profile female event.

That will peak trans the many people I know who are absolutely certain it won't happen.

Lots of people don't care about prisons; they've never been in one or known anyone in one. Toilets are a non-issue because we've been sharing with genuine, quiet, get-on-with-our-lives transexuals for years with no issues.

Beating a high profile medal hope for the UK.

Yes, men will notice that much more than they will notice the hypothetical "male person demands space in refuge" that can't be proven because no-one is going to out all the women in that same refuge by going public.

Most men think this is just women arguing among themselves - it's not an issue for men, they know transwomen aren't women, they don't even have to think about it.

@Patodp ehh I'd Ltb

When I'm feeling masochistic enough to think this through to the nth degree, the only conclusion I can come to is that we may have to just watch self-ID become law...and then let society devour itself. We could accelerate things if enough women decide to self-ID as men. I think that's the only thing that will make the patriarchy sit up and take notice. Gangs of brave women brandishing GRCs and demanding entry to men's hospital wards, changing rooms, private clubs etc might just show some of them what nonsensical dumbfuckery self-ID actually is.

It's not much comfort.

Issue is though, once its written into law, it will be extremely hard to get rid of. Could literally take a hundred years to win back the rights that the people formerly known as women had

I'm not sure how to get men more concerned because for the most part is does not affect them at all.

Because many of them have female partners and daughters? DP wasn’t happy at the thought of the likes of Big Dan Muscato in the female change at the swimming pool.

TheBadgersMadeMeDoIt I, a 52 year old straight woman, is seriously discussing self identifying as a gay man with my straight male partner if it becomes legal in Scotland. I think some form of self id will pass, all political parties and women’s orgs are in favour. So making a mockery out of it seems the way forward. Gonna be a gay man and invite Partrick Harvie, co chair of Scottish Green Party and very pro self id, to my wedding to partner, who will be a gay man now.Then he, partner, will id as a woman and we’ll be a straight couple again. Madness. But that’s the way it’s going.

if you take a look at the comments under the line on articles in the Times, the narrative has changed from a 'what are you all talking about? This is irrelevan.' to an exasperated acknowledgement of the seriousness of the issue
I think it's when children's safety is highlighted that people start to get it so the article talked about on this thread has mainly gender critical comments:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3151983-Teacher-wins-fight-over-transphobic-comments
(look for the second link as it gets you behind the paywall).

With sports they think I've been at the alternative news, of the Freddie Starr ate my hamster variety. I have been laughed at for believing such obviously fake news. I show reliable reporting and photos of the sportspeople and the overwhelming reaction is disbelief because something so obviously wrong can't be happening. They kind of disengage because it is so implausible. Men are far more outraged about the sporting "unfairness" than women according to my anecdata

Totally agree.

My son and I had a huge difference of opinion on this because he thinks being in support of it means he's defending the rights of someone so far down the pecking order that they make women look privileged.

When I talked about the self id, he shut me down as being utterly ridiculous amd paranoid because there is no way that would happen.

His actual position on it when we last talked about it a month or so ago was that "Mother, we have a Tory government. These are the people who are seeing disabled people made destitute. Do you honestly think they'd support a ludicrous minority of men being allowed into women's changing rooms, prisons and women's refuges based on no more than them saying "i'm a woman'?"

And he's not alone.