Self-identifying as a woman - I'm confused.

[SmartiesHaveTheAnswer]

Reading this from another thread I'm following. Can someone explain it to me please? I know what it means in terms of MtF Trans folk, but why should Women lose out on places in a political party because women don't also Self ID? What's that all about?

Sorry - my name doesn't pop up that often. I'm a long time peak-transed lurker that sticks my head up once in a while when something crops up that confuses me. Lots has confused me, but I'm getting there.

Yes. I suppose it would be helpful if they actually gave a definition of 'woman'.

No one has come up with one yet though, have they?

I don't self-identify as a woman because I am already a woman. Surely in that case, having posts for self-identified women excludes me?

Great answers and has really laid out the issue clearly - thank you for asking the question

The added layer of "why this is sexist bullshit in this instance" in that, much as it says it's for the benefit of trans people, it utterly fails to do anything for transmen/trans identifying females. What support do they get? What shortlists can they identify their way on to?

If that doesn't expose it for the sexist, regressive, jobs-for-the-boys utter bilge of a policy that it is, I don't know what does. It's as plain as the nose on your face. Born with a penis? In you come! Here's the red carpet. Born with a vag? You're going to have to earn your way in. No free rides.

I think we need to reclaim the word TERF.

As in 'I am a TERF and proud'.

Realise that this would not be helpful in a confrontation with TRAs but otherwise I have identified myself as such to friends/colleagues and also my reasons for being so. Have found most agree with what I am saying or if they don't quite get it they soon peak trans after a short discussion around the issues

I refuse to let these fuckers tell me that I cannot be a TERF.... I am and stand by this.

I don't self-identify as a woman because I am already a woman. Surely in that case, having posts for self-identified women excludes me?

Yes you and all ACTUAL LIVING BREATHING WOMEN.

You are not allowed to self identify as a woman if you do not bow to the ideology of transcult.

If you think this is a one off, have a look at stop @ fedupfemme who has done a greatest hits compilation over the last couple of days.

The homophobia is particularly appalling.

So you're not a real woman unless you are complicit in your own erasure. If you want to apply for a position to help dismantle that, you have to erase yourself first.

You don't have a voice about women's erasure?

Erase yourself first, then we can talk. Oh, wait...

It is part of the political transition from material reality to a belief system.

thebewilderness has it in a nutshell here.

This is really sinister. It's a major political party officially endorsing a women erasing ideology. It may have been written by someone who does not understand the serious implications of what they have written but it is there all the same.

If you do not accept the trans dogma of what a woman is then you are excluded from protected women's posts.

There is a massive shift here. Previously our problem was men being allowed into female only space. Now our problem is the above plus women being excluded from female only space unless they agree to submit to an anti-woman extremist ideology.

Gosh.

RedToothBrush I admit that I shouldn't snigger at insults. But an 'awful sewer ugly' is actually quite inventive . I'll claim it.

And it's interesting that they feel a person must 'deserve' to be a 'woman'. Do we 'deserve' grey hair? Or to British? Or to be able bodied? It's an objective state of being. If we don't 'deserve' to be a woman, what are we? Male? Or just sewer uglies?

Re. TERF. YY Seawitchly. I can't get worked up about being called a TERF. The radfem part is accurate. The 'trans exclusionary' part isn't quite accurate. I absolutely do exclude transwomen from womanhood (they are perfectly worthy of dignity, protections and respect as transwomen). Transmen are female though. So I would never seek to exclude them. We'll be here waiting if/when they need us.

What I do get worked up about is the level of open hatred and foot-stamping directed at people who question this ideology. TERF might be accurate, but how odd to use it as an insult rather than engage in discussion. WRT 'sewer ugly' and so on the insults are laughably childlike. We'd just dismiss them out of hand if they weren't so frequently accompanied by harassment and violence.

You'll have to excuse the wording as I'm typing this quickly on my way to work. Am I right in thinking that a lot of trans ideology is about eroding women's rights but doesn't have the same impact on men? Do men now need to self identify? Do men no longer use male changing rooms or can we (women) all use them so long as we identify as male. Is the FtM trans group as battering if identity?
I've only seen the issues identified here so have no idea how this pans out in wider society. Thanks for the clarification.

CountTessa

There are no men only shortlists, because men are already over represented.

In terms of prisons, no. Women identifying as men are not clamouring to be housed in a male prison. I'm not even sure they would be allowed, for obvious reasons. And despite those reasons being obvious, they don't seem to work in reverse, i.e. men in women's prisons.

Women identifying as men are not making a big song and dance about accessing male spaces. They may well use men's toilets, if they pass, but they are not politicising it.

Largely because men don't give a fuck if women want to use their spaces, because women are absolutely no threat.

If you ask them individually, they might well say they feel uncomfortable with an obvious woman in there, but as the threat is more likely to be towards the woman, they're not collectively up in arms about it.

Neither are they the slightest bit worried that women will start competing against them in sport. Again, for obvious reasons.

The entire issue is so obviously sexist, it's impossible to ignore.

Transactivist transwomen claim they have no male privilege. Patently a lie.

They also claim that women identifying as men acquire male privilege.

Again, obviously false.

You only ever hear about transwomen in the news, in media, on chat shows. Being feted and celebrated. Because they are men.

If you hear about transmen, it's because they have given birth or been raped.

Transmen are female though. So I would never seek to exclude them. We'll be here waiting if/when they need us.

And I sincerely hope that they’ll feel able to access any new breast or ovarian screening tests being proposed.

Exactly Datun.

When we look at transmen we can really see trans ideology for the women erasing men's rights movement it is.

Transmen is mostly about the erasure of lesbianism and gender non compliant women. Actual men don't give a shit about transmen because, patriarchy.

Transwomen is about men's right to define and control women in accordance with patriarchal cultural hegemony and men's right to do what the fuck they want.

Both of the above are manifestations of male supremacist culture in which males have high status and females low status. No matter how much self-identification identity politics kool-aid bollocks they drink.

Largely because men don't give a fuck if women want to use their spaces, because women are absolutely no threat.

...except for inheritance rights.

'The fact that a person's gender has become the acquired gender under this Act (a) does not affect the descent of any peerage or dignity or title of honour, and (b) does not affect the devolution of any property.'

Funny, that.

Both of the above are manifestations of male supremacist culture in which males have high status and females low status. No matter how much self-identification identity politics kool-aid bollocks they drink.

This is what I don't understand.

Part of the problem with the trans issue is that many people don't understand feminism. Which I totally get. But it does mean that certain strands are not instantly grasped because the context is fresh. Not same old, same old.

BUT anyone can see that it is men who are on top of this. Not women.

The Caitlyn Jenners, Frank Malonies, Shon Fayes, India Willoughbys. All the noise and demands are coming from men, not women.

It's painful to acknowledge that people must be able to see this, and still not get it.

Because, presumably, they absolutely do get it and just want it to happen.

Exactly Lancelottie

As soon as there is an actual, tangible threat to men's power, all bets are off.

Ffs.

I think a lot of people can't see it because it is same old same old.

Trans ideology is accepted as the natural order in the same way that male dominance is because it is male dominance. It rocks zero boats and doesn't challenge the status quo. Therefore it is invisible in the same way that all institutionalized sexism is.

Trans ideology works for a lot of people because it follows the rules. Men on top, men defining women, women being erased.

People peak trans either because they are familiar with feminist analysis or because the trans movement sometimes gets a bit too cocky and obviously sexist.

And yes, as you say, a lot of people totally get it. And welcome it as a cunning tool with which to harm girls and women.

The added layer of "why this is sexist bullshit in this instance" in that, much as it says it's for the benefit of trans people, it utterly fails to do anything for transmen/trans identifying females. What support do they get? What shortlists can they identify their way on to?

Which is why the idea proposed in the campaign of trans representation makes so much sense. Much more sense than adding transwomen onto the female only lists.

Trans representation would include transmen. Though no doubt it would still be transwomen who dominate..as you know, transmen have been socialized as women so won't generally want to make a fuss

'The fact that a person's gender has become the acquired gender under this Act (a) does not affect the descent of any peerage or dignity or title of honour, and (b) does not affect the devolution of any property.'

Funny, that.

What? WHAT??
I think I've just peaked my peak trans.
If it wasn't so frighteningly real, I'd laugh again and consider it a Monty Python sketch.

Dear God.

Watching someone do a double-take when the peerage exemption joker is played is one of the few glimmers of light in this sorry business.

It really is, nauticant!

When you first see that little gem, you have to read it three or four times and go, wait, WHAT? You're fucking kidding me, right?

The amount of fuss transactivists make about this egregious exemption, this glaring inequity, this horrific transphobia?

None.

Like I said, plain as the nose on your face - this movement is sexist to the absolute core. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

So... I think it's just worth mentioning that a lot of the comments here rely on the belief that a man would literally "claim" to be a woman, and all the struggles that come from identifying as a woman, purely to get a job... doesn't anyone notice how daft that idea is?

There's much easier ways of getting a job that don't involve changing your whole life and identity... perhaps their identity is in fact genuine. Seems rather more likely.

Yep. Men have never been known to bend the truth in extreme ways to get what they want. What are us silly women worried about?

Note to fellow lurkers, this is another current tactic here - rock up in the middle of the night, resurrect an older thread and sneer at it. It bumps current discussions down and helps them with their fixations.