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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

how can you have a smear test when you haven't got a cervix?

30 replies

k2p2k2tog · 14/01/2018 10:23

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5266833/NHS-breast-cancer-screening-not-offered-trans-men.html

Story basically saying that anyone registered as "female" is being invited for a smear. So transwomen who do not have and who have never had a cervix, are getting the letter. On the flip side, transmen who have not had a mastectomy are not being invited for breast screening.

This is surely total madness? I don't have my cervix any more after a hysterectomy, and that was cause for celebration. Surely even the most ardent transactivist wouldn't expect to be called for a smear?

OP posts:
AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 14/01/2018 10:36

It's their lady cervix, you big mean transphobe.

Why would you deny a woman of any kind the experience of having their vagina expanded by a cold speculum.

For those pre-op, one can only ruminate as to the procedure

BeeInMyBonnet1985 · 14/01/2018 10:38

I can't imagine any greater sense of victory and validation for some transwomen than the opportunity to get their legs in stirrups and force an (unwilling?) doctor or nurse to prod around in their penile cavity and resend not to notice the lack of a cervix.

I mean, sure, some transmen will probably die from undiagnosed cancers, and the NHS is already haemorrhaging so much money that patients are being denied life-extending drugs...but hey, if it gives some transwomen a glow of validation (and potentially the chance to pressure someone else into interacting with their genitals) then I guess it's a-okay.

Trills · 14/01/2018 10:38

The Daily Mail is trying to make you angry. Don't fall for it.

Gileswithachainsaw · 14/01/2018 10:42

This is so ridiculous.

What a waste of time and money on unnecessary appointments. S real woman may miss out or have delayed appointment as s result.

And why are life altering irreversible operations being performed on people to mentally unstable to handle their own medical needs?

I thought the ops cured everything anyway? Why are they still worried about validation or causing upset?

BeeInMyBonnet1985 · 14/01/2018 10:50

Perhaps the Daily Mail are reporting it because of their own political agenda...but honestly, do I care? No. The Mail didn't make the story up, they're only reporting on what Public Health England and the NHS are actually doing. And it's something that everybody SHOULD be angry about.

Purplerain101 · 14/01/2018 10:52

And it’s any wonder why the NHS are on their arse when they waste time and money with unnecessary things like this

GerardNoWay · 14/01/2018 10:58

It sounds to me like it comes down to the computer systems they use more than anything.

If you register as 'female' you are offered x, y and z and if you are registered as 'male' then you are offered what's appropriate to men.

Seems to me that, medically, you should have to register as the sex you were born, to make sure you are offered appropriate screening. Unfortunately we've all drank the Kool Aid and when it comes down to gender/sex we are so scared of not being politically correct we will put lives at risk and spend huge amounts of money screening people who have no chance of getting cervical cancer Hmm

Makes perfect sense.

LangCleg · 14/01/2018 11:04

It sounds to me like it comes down to the computer systems they use more than anything.

Yep. It's probably cheaper just to send all the letters out than it is to add new fields (for what is a relatively small number of patients).

NHS records should have fields for birth sex and/or lived gender.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 14/01/2018 11:12

What happens to transmen then? They don't get the letters? Most of them still have their cervixes

Spam88 · 14/01/2018 11:16

It's just a flaw in the system, as a PP has said. I believe some work does go on to try and get trans men to engage with screening, and you can only hope that trans women have the sense to withdraw from screening programs.

WhereYouLeftIt · 14/01/2018 11:28

I'd imagine it's all automated. A one-byte field on the patient's record that can be set to either M of F, that field checked by loads of different batch programs sending out letters based on that one-byte field. All hard-coded before all this started.

The joy of computers.

Original poster
k2p2k2tog · 14/01/2018 12:50

If you register as 'female' you are offered x, y and z and if you are registered as 'male' then you are offered what's appropriate to men.

Which is fine. But as a biological woman who has no longer got her cervix, my GP used her common sense and took me off the list for smear reminders.

GPs will be aware of the biological sex of their patients and surely it's not beyond their capabilities to recognise that a transwoman - however far along the "transition" path - doesn't need a smear.

OP posts:
UnitedKungdom · 14/01/2018 12:54

I'm sure transwomen will handle the situation just fine without your outrage. A quick call to the GP to be taken off the list is not that hard. Or as PPs have said, GPS themselves will know to take them off the list. As for transmen, they are not stupid and I'm sure can request a check for health reasons if they do wish. Again, no need for your outrage. They can all manage this just fine I'm sure.

Original poster
k2p2k2tog · 14/01/2018 12:55

The NHS guidelines say when discussing biological men who identify as women: "The woman will receive automatic invitations from the call and recall system until the absence of cervix is formally notified to the programme."

So yeah, if they had the notion to they could indeed pitch up and demand a smear.

OP posts:
UpABitLate · 14/01/2018 13:06

Healthcare accessibility is an important issue. We know from trans org stats that there are high levels of mental health problems amongst trans people as a group, and there is a higher likelihood of living on the fringes of society due to discrimination around jobs / housing / etc.

It is also well known that in the UK we have high numbers of people who have issues engaging with assistance whether due to low reading age, language issues, learning disabilities, mental health issues, substance abuse issues, the list goes on, and there is no reason to believe that the trans population differs from the general population in these regards. Apart from maybe being more likely to have some issues according to my reading.

The glib "oh they're not stupid it's all fine" when the issue is people not receiving calls to attend screening for diseases / conditions that they might be susceptible to is very callous and dare I say it not very inclusive, which is odd as I assume you are trying to be "pro trans" with this point.

There is also the issue that sex specific things can be triggering for trans people and obviously very much so, this is the reason they are lobbying hard to have words like pregnant woman replaced with pregnant person etc. Your idea that all trans people will be AOK with firstly knowing they need these tests even when they are never called, be proactive and willing to put themselves forward to make the appt, possibly have to explain to receptionists in crowded waiting rooms why someone who looks like a bloke is here for a smear etc etc

OBVIOUSLY this is not good enough and will lead to people not accessing healthcare they should be.

The answer is as mentioned upthread to have a sex at birth marker and something to over-ride the calls if a person has had surgery that makes it no longer an issue.

Bizarrely though I think more extreme TRAs would be against that as they say they have always been the sex they identify with and so any records otherwise need to be expunged even from healthcare but that's a different issue really.

I find your comment very unconcerned about a group containing some very vulnerable people.

UpABitLate · 14/01/2018 13:07

Sorry that was in response to UnitedKingdom's post.

UpABitLate · 14/01/2018 13:08

Which amounts to sticking your fingers in your ears and going lalalalla it's all fine.

StealthPolarBear · 14/01/2018 13:08

Rates of cervical cancer will go down though. So that's a good thing Hmm

HermioneWeasley · 14/01/2018 13:11

People’s sex needs to be accurately recorded for medical treatment. Sex appropriate screenings, medicine dosages, heart attack symptoms etc all vary by sex. Also if you are taking synthetic hormones, it’s probably useful to know that for treatment.
It’s madness.

MacaroonMama · 14/01/2018 14:02

I am sure a GP who posted on here many threads ago said that GPs are not allowed to mention natal sex? And that it is stricken from the record? In which case, those who need the tests may not be offered the tests.

I really think so many official forms now need two boxes - one for bio sex which cannot change, and one for gender - to be set as a default 'x' or something, but for those who need to assign themselves a gender (those with dysphoria, the TRAs etc) M or F or A or whatever.

I know the TRAs would say this is not enough, but I really think it is, for all intents and purposes.

CisCucumber · 14/01/2018 14:04

I'm willing to have a go at finding it
So long as I have a couple of TIM nurses to hold the patient down

EamonnWright · 14/01/2018 14:05

There's far too much precious money being wasted on this absurdity.

Lovesagin · 14/01/2018 14:15

I'm concerned that this whole "woman if you say you are" lie will impact on future studies where the results rely on accurate reporting of sex. Such as there have been campaigns in the past to target men/women to attend smears, prostrate checks and so on. Those, and other studies into specific sex related illnesses will be completely meaningless if this shite continues.

Which will affect us ALL.

hackmum · 14/01/2018 14:15

In the article, it says: "Public Health England last night said that screening invitations were automatically sent by computer, based on patients’ registered age and sex."

This confirms what was said later. The stuff about political correctness seems to have been invented by the Mail and/or David Davies. I imagine that the vast majority of computer software only has two fields for sex: male and female. They'll have to do quite a bit of work to add different ones to show people's biological sex and the gender they identify as. It'll be like the Millennium bug all over again - incredibly expensive to fix.

On the plus side, lots of work for software developers.