Transwomen should be considered for all women shortlist,Guardian

[mimivanne]

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/11/trans-women-should-be-considered-for-all-women-shortlists-labour-dawn-butler#img

'We will be taking guidance from people who are LGBT -who don't all agree-round the table.You need people who have lived experience in order to make informed decisions'
Well the last line is certainly a fact.

One persons TBTOTD is another persons FFSWU (for fucks sake wake up) thread.

They clearly care about women enough to go through what they have to live as one so I think they may make very good advocates for women in some ways

You can't 'live as a woman'. There is no such thing.

Being a woman is material a reality involving biology. From contraception to pregnancy, to rape, endometriosis, menopause, wifework, sexism, gender pay gap, FGM, honour killings.

Literally no one is stopping any man, trans or otherwise from supporting feminism.

But that's not the way it works. Transwomen who represent women prioritise trans issues, not women's issues. Unsurprisingly, they do not understand, nor care about women's issues.

Lily Madigan who is a 19-year-old boy representing women as the Labour Party women's officer, maintains that biology doesn't matter because he has as much chance of getting pregnant as any other woman because women aren't fertile all the time. So you mustn't single him out on that basis.

Shon Faye, another famous transwoman tells women to enjoy their erasure.

Paris Lees who writes for mainstream media tells women that section harassment is like being 'eye fucked' and it's hot to fuck someone who is crying.

India Willoughby maintains that her breasts are not sexual so there's no reason why she can't get them out in public.

Jane Fae is apparently 'frightened' of Jenni Murray.

Men who transition to be women either have gender dysphoria, in which case they are not the best people to represent anyone. Or they are fetishists (AGP).

The very last people to represent women are those who fetishise womanhood and female biology.

In due course when their every moment is not about defending themselves from women like on mumsnet I think they will be able to get on with a more general agenda.

And what general agenda might that be?

Defending themselves from what?! Women having opinions?

Will you show me the rape or death threats or severe homophobia on social media coming from gender critical women? I can show you hundreds from TRAs.

Just some women on MN, United. There are frequent calls for these frothing echo-chamber threads to be sectioned off. I have read many of the threads to understand and appreciate the arguments and I could say a lot more, but I'll just get raged at, so I'm not going to bother.

The general agenda is womens rights. I thought that was clear.

I'd be delighted if transwomen were interested in defending women's rights. I haven't seen much evidence of that.

I think they will be able to get on with a more general agenda.

Have you seen their 'general agenda'? I urge you to read it. It was written by the people who were consulted in parliament over the original proposals to amend the GRA.

It includes such gems as:

We fight for an end to borders, prisons and police.

There will be no clinics, and no authorities. We will conduct our own research, and experiment with our own bodies.

We demand hormones & blockers are made available over-the-counter and by free prescription upon request.

We demand voice coaching that does not coerce us to alter our voices in ways we do not express a need for, but respects our accents and our right to express ourselves however we desire.

We demand medical training to enable us to safely carry out medical procedures & research for each other, for anyone of us who wants to learn.

We demand immediate release & pardon for all trans prisoners.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/09/20/trans-health-manifesto/#more-10439

If you think this manifesto sounds crazy, you would be absolutely right.

But the people who wrote it advised the government on Maria Millers transgender equality report.

It's there for anyone to see. 98 pages, which credits them as contributors.

There are a few Jiggly but they get labelled 'truscum' or, I've noticed lately, are dismissed as not really trans

Thanks Datun.

And how exactly are women’s rights and trans women’s rights the same thing?
Women’s rights are centred around sex based oppression, access to contraception, abortion, maternity pay, pelvic mesh’s etc.
Trans rights are based on gender.

These actually contradict each other.
How can a woman have the right to be examined by a female person and also allow male bodied people to fall in the category of women?

Ah. So UnitedKingdom and Elphaba, you intend to just make sad superior noises and not engage with the facts being shared as those facts aren't ones you like?

So you're ok with homophobia and in particular erasing lesbians who should not be allowed to choose not to sleep with people with penises. You're ok with separating the concept of 'women' from biology. I can see why you're not prepared to try and defend that position, I really can. It's utterly indefensible.

Sorry Glittery but I've defended my position on this more than 20 times. I don't have time or energy to engage with your style of thinking today. We simply don't see things in the same way.

Sorry Glittery but I've defended my position on this more than 20 times. I don't have time or energy to engage with your style of thinking today. We simply don't see things in the same way.

Oh, thank God, someone who can defend their position!

Briefly, can you define 'Woman' in a way that includes me, and transwomen, but not my sons or male partner, or transmen?

Cos once we have that, I think we'll be able to work on something that can accommodate us all.

Ploppers gonna plop.

Sorry, couldn't be arsed. I don't post on these threads for people like you. I post just in case some poor trans person ends up reading any of these threads so they know that not everyone is intent on stripping them bare to make a mean-spirited point. I know you all feel like you're doing 'important work'. But you don't represent all people's views on the role or value of trans people in the world.

UnitedKungdom

Take it one point at a time then. Because rights absolutely clash. Almost every step of the way.

How would you solve the problem of a woman wanting a woman to do her smear test and a man demanding he is accepted as that woman?

UnitedKungdom

Eh? What on earth makes you think transpeople are not posting on these threads??

you don't represent all people's views on the role or value of trans people in the world.

This is not about the role or value of trans people in the world, it's about political transactivism, which is an extremist group which many trans people feel does not represent them and is doing them harm, but are the ones taking the public positions and forcing through political change.

This is also about refusing to allow women and girls' rights to be removed and devalued, and seen as unnecessary.

Unitedkungdom - for those of us who are only recently starting to learn about this issue perhaps you would take the trouble to point us towards a thread where you have taken the time to share your view. Of all the threads I've read on here so far (admittedly only the first couple of pages) I haven't really seen any response to some key concerns being raised.

united kungdom

No one here thinks trans people don’t have value to society, I would fight till my last breath for their right to dress however they like, call themselves whatever they like, be free from harassment and have the correct medical treatment.

However having the treatment and wearing different clothes does not ACTUALLY change your sex.
We should be fighting for a society that is tolerant of all people however they express themselves but until Male violence is sorted we still need to make allowances based on sex (and after actually as males and females need different treatment).

The point where you have to stop waving your arms around is at the end of someone’s face.

Trans women are trans women, crack on, I wish them all well.
Trans women are not biologically female.

When I said treatment there I obviously meant medical treatment as in their bodies react differently to certain drugs etc rather than treatment from society.

In reality there's unlikely to be many trans women in any given 'women's group'.

Oh, you sweet summer child, UnitedKungdom. You are clearly not aware of how many "women's" groups, and "lesbian" groups already have transwomen in them who aren't just members, but who have taken control of leadership positions and who demand that these groups centre and prioritise trans issues, as boring old women and lesbians are the actualfax oppressing class, now.

Why are you so hostile to the transwomen who do post here, who are concerned about the GRA?

Why do you only stick up for the aggressive misogynist trans rights activists?

Why do you want to fuck over trans people with gender dysphoria?