Surprised - no comment on the Le Monde letter?

[Mominatrix]

I read about this and came here to see what reaction on this forum has been to the letter published in Le Monde written by Catherine Deneuve and Catherine Millet has been, and surprised that there is not one thread. Here is the Atlantic magazine's article on it which is bordering on ambivalent. I myself am dismayed by the French attitude of acceptance of background harassment as it is part of the game of seduction. Is this the attitude of the country of Simone de Beauvoir? Really?

Claire Fox on Any Questions yesterday was talking about this: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09l250v
Fast forward to about 38 minutes. She agrees with Deneuve. She makes various points, in particular creating fragile victimhood culture.

• If your boss puts his hand on your knee, you should just remove it. -

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/12/women-should-happy-men-try-hit-says-silvio-bunga-bunga-berlusconi/

Deneuve should be well made up by the fact that Berlusconi is heaping praise on her as he says it is only natural that women should want men to seduce them.

After all, winning the approval of pervy twats like him must be the dream of every woman mustn't it?

Another one who has lived in Paris and found that harassment was a nigh on daily fact, from a flasher on the Metro on my first day, being touched up in the RER, grabbed by the crotch by a passer by in the woods (scary, that) and perpetually hounded at college and in the street.
I have lived in London for 20 years and have never had the same experiences, vs one year in Paris. I know it happens in the UK, but my experience tells me that it’s far more of a problem in France.

There is something in what Fox was saying, but it only works in a world where women and girls aren’t subject to experiences (and socialisation) which teach us we occupy a position of weakness. I’m glad for her that she’s escaped the worst of it, but it wouldn’t hurt for her to try to understand what it would be like not to feel so safe in the world.

It’s not just about whether you feel weak - it’s about whether you are actually weak. When I was in my first job I had a slightly senior co-worker who used to flirt with me in a way which very definitely wasn’t OK. When he crossed the line, which was normally when he was drunk, I would punch him, and that gave an unambiguous message that he’d gone too far. But he didn’t have the power of life and death over me.

However when the much older CEO made drunken come-on comments to me and (separately) suggested that we should go on a 2 week business trip together I was absolutely terrified. I knew that it would be a nightmare of, at best mortifying embarrassment and there would be no way out of it without the sort of plainspeaking which would irreparably damage my relationship with the man who agreed my bonuses and made redundancy decisions.

The worst was “harmlessly flirtatious” comments from a much older doctor when I was a student. Like so many examples on this thread, there’s no way that it could have been a genuine attempt to chat me up, and it instilled a cold fear that this man could decide on a whim that my symptoms required a chest lingering chest exam - it’s an inherently vulnerable situation.

That letter from the French women. Just ugh.

And agreed. hipster it is weird how some of the (ex-hard left libertarian) right wingers’ views on sexual politics are really sound on the importance of autonomy, but then totally fall down by imagining everyone lives in an equally-privileged and well resourced utopia where we’re all free to choose what we do and what is done to us.

It’s been depressing to see the number of women defending Weinstein by seeing it as normal flirting between the sexes and coming out with all that “men will be too scared to pay women an innocent compliment” gubbins.

While totally ignoring that the real issue is one of power imbalance.

Flirting with a woman at party = ok

Asking for handjob from woman who is relying on you for work = not ok.

It’s pretty bloody simple and Deneuve obviously can’t see the difference, so sure is she of her own status.

It’s not just about whether you feel weak - it’s about whether you are actually weak.

To clarify, when I said we are taught that we occupy a position of weakness, it was intended to encompasss both being reminded of objective realities (our biological ‘disadvantages’) and persuaded of cultural beliefs (to believe in them or to disbelieve, while understanding their effects are real).

The other point is that harassment starts around, what, 12, on average? Basically when a girl hits puberty and starts to look older and have some breasts then starts.

These types of comments always seem to overlook this.

Yep, even when you’re a gawky 12-year-old in school uniform who still looks like a child.

I too have found generally that Western Europe is much more misogynistic than the UK (sexual harassment seen as the norm etc).

Western Europe is a very broad brush, imo. I've definitely encountered it in UK, France, Belgium and Italy, but not in Netherlands or the few bits of Germany I've been in. Anecdotal, of course.

Is there proper cross-country data on this somewhere?

I would like to see some data too - but I remember Germaine Greer saying the UK was the worst. I happen to agree (but anecdotal of course), though of course misogyny is deeply entrenched everywhere. :(

I think that data is a red herring. What is mysogenistic is culturally relative and data depends on reporting. What would be considered a mysogenistic act in Holland is very different from the view in Italy or, it seems, France.

In defence of France, they have at least adopted the Nordic model when it comes to prostitution. (Maybe this is because in France women are allowed to be sexual beings... the flipside being that apparently that men still misread "sexual being" as "open to all comers so how dare she reject a bit of frottage from a complete stranger on the Metro?")

Data wouldn't necessarily be a red herring. It depends on how it's collected.

A good study wouldn't ask "how many times in the last 12 months have you experienced sexual harassment?" because that would depend on a subjective / culturally variable definition of harassment. A properly-constructed study would ask about a wide range of specific events in an objective way, like "how many times in the last 12 months have you experienced unexpected sexual touching from a stranger in a public place?" Personal enjoyment à la Deneuve is irrelevant: it's the frequency of the event that counts.

Still don't know of anyone has done a proper study, of course