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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Reply from Justine Greening's office re GRA

18 replies

chaoticgood · 08/01/2018 12:52

I sent an email to Justine Greening saying I was glad she was taking more time over the GRA decision. I put forward two objections to self id. One was the philosophical one, that if we define "woman" in the way the trans movement wants us to then we are rolling back decades of feminist struggle against the oppressive culture of essentially masculine/feminine ways to dress and to behave. The other was practical - if you remove the "gatekeepers" so that any man can legally become a woman for any reason, then you can't keep out men from women's spaces, regardless of whether they are really transwomen or not (whatever that may mean).

Here is the - anonymous! - response from her office. It doesn't address the first point at all, and as for the second, I don't see any real response to that either, just a lot of twaddle. The "guidance for service providers" that they link to is all about supporting TG people and nothing at all about maintaining any sort of single-sex provision, except this one paragraph: "You may only treat people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment differently regarding access to services reserved for their self-identified gender if you can
demonstrate that the way you have approached a situation is a ‘proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim’ and so is objectively justifiable. You need to be able to show that there is no less discriminatory way to achieve the aim." This is so vague and the threat of being accused of discrimination is so ever-present, I think this would prevent most people from daring to ask anyone of the wrong sex to leave anywhere ever.

===============================

Thank you for your email, addressed to Justine Greening, regarding the Gender Recognition Act (GRA). I am responding on behalf of Justine Greening, Minister for Women and Equalities.

The Equality Act 2010 allows organisations to provide single sex services. We have no intention of changing the safeguards that women’s single sex services already have in place to protect vulnerable women.

We recognise that the provision of single sex or communal facilities is a particularly sensitive issue and have therefore previously issued guidance for service providers. This guidance can be found at www.gov.uk/government/publications/providing-services-for-transgender-customers-a-guide.

In regards to your point on prisoners, all transgender prisoners must be allowed to express the gender with which they identify. There are already strong safeguards in place to ensure prisoners who may be a risk to other prisoners are dealt with appropriately and a robust risk assessment protocol is in place to ensure that transgender prisoners are located in the most suitable environment. Decisions to locate transgender prisoners in prisons that do not accord with their legal gender can be made only on the recommendation of a Transgender Case Board.

We will consider how reform of the process of gaining a Gender Recognition Certificate might impact upon prisons and these risk assessments will be considered as part of the GRA consultation and Government Response.

We propose to run an open consultation on how best to reform the Gender Recognition Act 2004, and want to hear views from all stakeholders, including women’s groups and refuges. We have already began consulting with a range of women’s groups so we can better understand their concerns. We will continue to do this throughout the consultation process.

Thank you for taking the time to write to us on these important matters.

Kind regards,

Government Equalities Office

OP posts:
IrkThePurist · 08/01/2018 12:59

''The Equality Act 2010 allows organisations to provide single sex services. We have no intention of changing the safeguards that women’s single sex services already have in place to protect vulnerable women.''

Hurrah. They finally recognise the Equality Act. Lets spread this far and wide and not let them get away with paying lip service to peoples rights.

AssassinatedBeauty · 08/01/2018 13:07

Are the women's groups they are consulting with the kind that centre transwomen I wonder?

Also, with the current state of affairs, everyone is terrified of being perceived as a transphobe so I seriously doubt people in these groups will say what they think if it might come across as contrary to the trans ideology.

Datun · 08/01/2018 13:13

Sorry, what groups, Justine Greening? Who do you mean by that?

This silly woman still doesn't realise that the women's groups she consults could be entirely made up of men.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/01/2018 13:19

I actually wonder what the security implications of changes will be vis a vis 'potential terrorism' etc.

PositivelyPERF · 08/01/2018 13:19

I was thinking that they will be talking to groups that centre TIMs too. It's all a load of waffle to stop women from complaining until they push it through, with the excuse that 'women's' groups agree with them. I have absolutely no doubt they won't listen to real women's groups.

EamonnWright · 08/01/2018 13:41

Trans 'women' seem to have got their feet under the table of most women's groups so when they're consulted the feedback will come from trans people too.

If it was intentional then they've worked it very well.

chaoticgood · 08/01/2018 14:24

irkthepurist, if only you were right. Sadly the paragraph after the nod to the Equality act shows just what kind of a nod it was. It's that next bit that really makes my blood boil. They present that "guidelines" document as though they are showing that they take single-sex spaces seriously. But the document is all about trans rights and absolutely throws women under the bus. The bait-and-switch is not even sneaky, it's so blatant as to be disrespectful.

OP posts:
IrkThePurist · 08/01/2018 14:35

chaoticgood
I know, I should have put /s for sarcasm Sad

The Tories have trashed the Equality Act. Is anyone surprised?

Mumsnut · 08/01/2018 20:07

Greening has resigned apparently

OlennasWimple · 08/01/2018 20:17

Yup, Greening has gone from Education. Her replacement is going to be announced tomorrow

hackmum · 08/01/2018 20:21

Damian Hinds, apparently. Anybody know anything about him?

hackmum · 08/01/2018 20:22

He's just going to be education, though - looks like women and equalities is going to be Claire Perry.

HermioneWeasley · 08/01/2018 20:25

The exemptions under the Equality Act are only any use if they are used. Given that national and local government run the NHS, prisons, schools and leisure facilities and none use exemptions (some NHS trusts have self ID policies) it’s a bit fucking irrelevant.

We need to demand exemptions are used.

SparklyUnicornTractors · 08/01/2018 20:49

Basically that says a) we will absolutely value and preserve single sex spaces for women b) however 'women' means anyone who identify as such

B cancels out any sense or logic in A.

PinkChestnut · 09/01/2018 09:39

That government official "providing services..." document linked makes for a depressing read :(

Shineystrawberrylover · 09/01/2018 09:44

It's too late. The deals have been made. Men found a way to sideline women completely - refusing them an identity distinct from men in any meaningful fashion.

Dreamingdreams · 09/01/2018 09:50

Definitely not good. Women are f**ked.

I don't know how the supposedly clever people in power can't see it. Having equality and separate spaces for women is great AND necessary, but NOT IF ANYONE CAN SELF - I.D. AS ONE!

Kinda defeats the point of it, really. Can they seriously NOT see that, or do they just not care?

hatgirl · 09/01/2018 09:57

Claire Perry would definitely have been an interesting choice for women and equalities, everything I know about her suggests she would fit in well on mumsnet.

Everything I've read though suggests Amber Rudd is getting the WAE role. Have I missed something?

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