Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another trans thing - the changing of birth certificates...

65 replies

MacaroonMama · 06/01/2018 21:09

Hello All,
I think I have only just realised that along with a GRC comes a new birth certificate in the 'acquired [sex/gender/whatever they think is correct]'. Is that right? Has that been the case since 2004?
It just bothered me a bit because I thought that a birth certificate is a legal document, and, really changing the sex of the baby is telling a lie, isn't it?
The usual caveat here of: I have much sympathy for those with gender dysphoria and cannot imagine it - I totally understand why this is given to them, so that other documents reliant on a birth certificate are able to be obtained, but it sits very oddly with me. Like forging documents.
I have just spoken to my cousin who adopted a little one last year, and she said that when the adoption was completed, they got a new long birth certificate for their new child, in which she and her husband were named as the parents. So again, amendments made. But she wasn't sure what happened to the original, she thought perhaps it is kept but sealed?
Not really sure why I am asking really. I know those with a GRC are those with gender dysphoria, which must be such a difficult condition to struggle with, so I would never want to make life any more difficult. It just feels strange.
Will those who self-ID be able to get a new birth certificate? Because then we will not have an accurate picture of the past, will we?
Sorry - just musing while waiting for the Scottish consultation doc to load! Any and all thoughts welcome. And Wine to share of course xx

OP posts:
BarrackerBarmer · 07/01/2018 14:08

^How does this work in terms of crime?

If a Mttf murderer leaves male dna, but has a birth cert stating female, how will the police convict them if the original BC is destroyed. Are police even allowed to question gender?^

Brace yourself:
www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/jul/24/transgender-serial-killer-donna-perry-sentenced-to/

Douglas/Donna Perry. Evaded justice for 20 years. Who can say whether his official 'female' status aided him in evading capture for so long? After all, police found male DNA. They were looking for an officially male suspect.

ATeardropExplodes · 07/01/2018 14:14

Evaded justice for 20 years. Who can say whether his official 'female' status aided him in evading capture for so long? After all, police found male DNA. They were looking for an officially male suspect.

I cannot understand why the police are not jumping up and down screaming about this? It is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

BarrackerBarmer · 07/01/2018 14:41

The police in the UK CHOOSE to record suspects' preferred gender on nothing more than their say so and have been doing this for a decade.

There have been Freedom of information requests to confirm this.

The law doesn't require this. People are running like lemmings off a cliff.

Media are reporting male offenders as female when the law cannot enforce this yet.

At some point some big organisation will break ranks and hopefully force a test case.

BatShite · 07/01/2018 15:59

I read on here the other day that adopted children do not get a new birth certificate. So why the special treatment for transpeople?

A birth certificate to me is a document of the past. As such I completely disagree with changing the sex on them.

cuirderussie · 07/01/2018 21:04

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Foy

This case made me hit peak trans (Ireland). Lydia was Donal Foy, a rugby playing 40something dentist, a married father of two before transition. All fine. But Lydia demanded that not only current ID documentation like passport and driving licence state that Lydia is female; the original birth cert must be altered too. Lydia sued the Irish state at great cost in legal aid and even got into a messy legal battle with his ex wife and daughters, who were concerned that this would nullify the previous marriage with implications for succession etc. The rationale for this madness was the "embarrassment" of people seeing the original "Donal" birth cert and realising Lydia was male. Which is ludicrous as Lydia is clearly and evidently male. I have no idea why Lydia is held as a hero by liberals here, the only cause in question is himself.

drspouse · 07/01/2018 21:08

The adoption long certificate in the UK does not state that these parents gave birth to this child - it states that it's a copy of an entry in the adoption register.
(But in some countries you do get a "legal fiction" "birth" certificate as adopters)

OlennasWimple · 08/01/2018 19:30

The short birth certificate issued after adoption doesn't name the adoptive parents but does use the new name (assuming that the name of the adopted child was changed). The historian in me dislikes this, as it's not true that Sarah Emma Smith was born on 1 Jan 2000 in the Portland Hospital, it was Sarah Sally Jones*. But it is vital that my adopted DC has a document that can be used without revealing their adopted status, so this is how it is.

  • names, date, place changed, obv!
MacaroonMama · 08/01/2018 19:51

So interesting. The crime stuff is crazy - the police must be furious that there are cases like the above.

Re: adoption - my cousin and her DH adopted a little one last year, and they got a new long birth certificate naming her and her DH husband as little one's parents, and giving little one's new surname. I know because I checked before posting.

There has to be a legal challenge to this. Men raping and killing women, but being allowed to have a new birth certificate and all new ID? Come ON people, put the Kool Aid down...

OP posts:
kooshbin · 08/01/2018 20:01

So, Jane marries Peter. Peter later decides he’s Mary. Gets a full GRC with Jane’s consent. But then Jane decides she wants a divorce. Who does she divorce? Peter or Mary?

If then the children apply for a passport, who do they put down as their father? Peter, because that’s what’s on their own birth certificate? Or Mary, as Peter’s birth certificate no longer exists?

Did anyone think through what it all could mean for the wives and children?

drspouse · 08/01/2018 20:45

Macaroon If in the UK it is NOT a birth certificate. It is an adoption certificate.

OlennasWimple · 08/01/2018 20:53

Did anyone think through what it all could mean for the wives and children?

No - or they did and they didn't care

Macaroon - it's as drspouse says, but unless you look closely, you probably wouldn't notice that it says that it is a copy from the Adoption register rather than the Birth Register

MaidOfStars · 09/01/2018 10:22

If Jane consents to the GRC, her marriage to Peter is converted to a same-sex marriage to Mary. I assume you can get a marriage certificate reissued to reflect this.

Divorce after a GRC will be from Mary.

If Jane does not consent to the GRC, Jane and petwr must annul/divorce before a GRC is granted.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 09/01/2018 12:19

If a Mttf murderer leaves male dna, but has a birth cert stating female, how will the police convict them if the original BC is destroyed. Are police even allowed to question gender

Fucked if I know, but that would make a great episode of Midsomer Murders but only if John Nettles comes back.

BelaLugosisShed · 10/01/2018 12:00

What if a man fathers a child after legally transitioning, then what goes on the birth certificate? It’s sheer lunacy.

RedToothBrush · 10/01/2018 13:39

First of all its about the deliberate conflation of gender with sex. Why are we changing birth certificates at all? They say sex. Your passport says sex too. Not gender. Sex.

Changing your birth certificate in this way is in effect a legal way of saying male is not male and female is not female and that sex is not a real thing and is not as important as gender.

This is why self-identification over gender makes sense. That would require the abolition of gender all together. Which is what feminists want.

The trouble is, that what we are getting the abolition of sex. Which is being given a legal framework via birth certificates.

But discrimination along the lines of biology and sex isn’t being abolished.

Birth certificates in recording a birth sex, keep an eye on important issues - things like whether there is an imbalance between sexes in society which might have social consequences (see China), or whether a particular sex is more likely to die at a certain age or in a certain way (health issues / discrimination).

In conflating gender with sex on birth certificates you destroy this important neutral information.

This is bad for both women and men.

If its about self-identification of gender, it would be better to merely remove sex from issued birth certificates, but let the GRO record it at time of registration and allow data about sex to be accessible via court order or FOI under certain conditions or under certain legal circumstances (eg - trans sex offenders). Thus allowing transparency and data to not be distorted. Undermining data integrity is a dangerous practise to start because it exposes all data to ideological bias and influence.

The bitter irony here, is trans cult don't want anyone else but people like them to self-identify. Gender fluidity, is viewed with a certain suspicion by some TRA. See India Willoughby’s comments on drag queens and ‘cheapening’ the struggle of transwomen. Why? Because it undermines their argument for gender being sex and the reasons behind their own identity. And its about not wanting to confront the possibility of co-morbity. They want to impose their own denial or insecurity on others.

Detransitioners are viewed as a threat to TRAs. They WANT people to be trapped by the concept of gender rather than sex. The binary nature of sex provides the framework. This is why birth certificates are important to them. Not merely for their protection but also as a political means to legitimise the TRA agenda. Hence the MRA alliance.

By destroying the concept of sex you achieve this. This is why birth certificates are important. Its about conflation which allows control of women. Its all about the creation of an illusion and legitimising it.

I read a fabulous article this morning. It raised a few questions to me, including one about birth certificates.

thefederalist.com/2018/01/09/walt-heyer-proves-sex-change-regret-real-thats-trans-lobby-hates/
The Trans Lobby Hates This Man For Proving Sex-Change Regret Is Real
The case in the article was about a man who transitioned - including having full surgery - and then transitioned.

This proved to be something of a legal problem. He spent 34 years legally as a woman under Californian law. It took him ten attempts to get his original birth certificate restored.

The legal situation in the US has implications for the UK. The US making it legally this difficult to reverse a changed birth certificate makes distortion of reality easier. This also affects international research and discussion of the subject. If it is legally, pretty much impossible to change your mind, then fluidity is not possible. This is rather an affront to the very principle of being able to self-identify!

Point being, that it means you can self-identify as long as you don't change your mind or have different ideas to us or value self identification along biological lines.

Under UK law as it stands I believe you'd have to go through a GRC in reverse. Which seems reasonable in a way, to stop people switching at will and abusing the system. This might seem harsh, but it offers protection, though it still undermines the concept of sex and gender being different by allowing birth certs to be changed. Its better than the US at least, because there does seem to be a legal framework there.

I also thought about the point in the article about how transgenderism is serving as a vehicle for social engineering and the centralization of state power and promotes a surveillance society. Precisely because sex and gender are conflated and continue to appear on birth certificates.

I think this suddenly got more important in the context of the person responsible for the GRA in this country, now also being the Home Secretary. There is something of a conflict of interest here, if the effect of the GRA is to increase state control. (Women and Equalities should not be given to someone with another department as this is a problem across the board). Its too much power in one person’s hands that could be abused. I’m not saying Amber Rudd would, but there might be a temptation if it was politically advantageous to hide the abuse of women using legislation and to control feminist analysis.

Ereshkigal · 10/01/2018 18:29

Great post Red. I hadn't thought about it from quite that angle before.

vesuvia · 10/01/2018 20:15

RedToothBrush wrote - "Your passport says sex too. Not gender. Sex."

I think the situation is even worse than you have described because, according to Boyslikepinkgirlslikeblue on another thread, new passports now say gender not sex.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3120317-Follow-on-thread-III-Feeling-sad-and-weary-that-feminists-and-trans-women-are-constantly-pitted-against-one-another#74427771

RedToothBrush · 10/01/2018 20:23

You are kidding.

I checked mine said sex because posting here.

I fear that sex has already been abolished then.

OlennasWimple · 10/01/2018 20:29

Dont' panic! Passport issued just last week says "sex" (I just had a slightly odd conversation with my friend, who just got her new passport through the post, on why I wanted to know.....)

Stopmakingsense · 10/01/2018 20:31

Passport issued Nov 17 says Sex not Gender.
My trans identifying DD has had her passport changed to say "Sex: Male", on the basis of a letter from her GP, nowhere near getting a GRC.

kooshbin · 10/01/2018 21:15

Stopmakingsense - My first thought was "Can that be true?" But I'm not doubting you. I'm just increasingly floundering in my attempt to make sense of what the hell is going on.

It seems that various organisations are just going ahead with whatever the transactivists have been demanding, irrespective of what the current law actually says.

Ereshkigal · 10/01/2018 21:22

So with some other countries, if it's an obviously different sex to the one on the passport, might they not have a problem with that at immigration?

OlennasWimple · 10/01/2018 22:17

Not just at immigration, Ereshkigal. What about Middle Eastern countries that require certain clothing for women (or not driving, or being alone without a male chaperone etc etc)? Not sure I'd chance waving my British passport around and claiming that I was a woman because it said so...

OlennasWimple · 10/01/2018 22:17

was a man, sorry

RedToothBrush · 10/01/2018 22:47

Travel and being trans is an interesting one. Passport might say one thing, body scanner another. This doesn't help you if you are trans in certain places. It certainly does not offer the protection you might be used to in the uk.

I don't see how you could withhold that info from an employer if your job required you to travel. The employer would not be discriminating if they refused to send you to certain places.