I didn’t know we had arseholes like this “on our side”.

[MothQuandary]

I saw that a transwoman called Kristina Jayne Harrison is speaking at the Manchester meeting “A woman’s place is under threat”

I’d never heard of her, so I looked her up on Twitter. I thought I was a TERF but, my god, she has had a hell of a lot of really unnecessary abuse from people who describe themselves as feminists. Maybe I was naive in expecting her to only get abuse from TRAs and right wing bigots. Look at the response she got to this perfectly reasonable tweet. (You have to scroll up to the top there, I couldn’t find a way that made Kristina’s post appear at the top, without it hiding the worst of the abuse).

Aside from anything else, have these people got no thought for how this looks? People will think the TERF slur is justified if they see stuff like this. Kristina doesn’t pretend she’s really a woman. She supports women keeping their safe spaces. Why the hell have such a go at her? It’s not helping.

I can’t imagine how hard it must be for her and other feminist trans allies, like Miranda Yardley, to continue putting their case despite getting shit from all directions. Props to them.

That's not exactly abuse though is it? No one is threatening them or being abusive. I thought it was going to be threats of violence and aggressive attacks. Several people, perhaps deliberately, didn't get what they were saying but there was plenty of support in response.

I agree OP. Some pretty nasty unnecessary aggression in the tweets to Kristina. Does us no favours whatsoever.

I think Kristina blundered onto a minefield there. I don't think it was appropriate to speak of trans 'dignity at work' in that context - it looks like a minimisation of that dodgy TIM gynae misogynist who should look to another area of employment (ie- not work with women in a vulnerable state).

There are a lot of feminists - particularly lesbian feminists, who feel under siege by boundary-violating males. It is profoundly irritating if someone comments in a kind of detached manner that 'both sides' need understanding/dignity.

Its obvious the TIM gynae is a AGP gaslighting, boundary-violating pervert and Kristina should have called that out if Kristina is really an ally of women.

There's a lot of pain out there, and born males should think before they tweet about women's indignities, just as, for example, white people should think about tweeting about the indignities of POCs or able-bodied people tweet about the indignities of disabled people, etc, etc, etc. If you don't think before you tweet in this way - prepare to get flamed!

I am not justifying flaming Kristina, just that I know this is to be expected when blundering into a minefield spouting daft, ignorant, 'reasonable sounding' false equivalence at a point of pain for an oppressed group, when you belong to the oppressor class.

I thought it was highly unnecessary. I think a couple of women had misunderstood what Kristina was saying and then doubled down on their crossness rather than accept they had.

I understand that some feminists will never accept even post-SRS transsexuals into women's spaces. And I support their right to argue for that, even though I personally don't have any issue with transsexuals getting GRCs and being accepted into most women's spaces, provided the cross-dressers are kept out and single sex exemptions strengthened.

And I also accept feelings are running high because of the current situation and women feel as though they can't give any more inches because so many miles have been taken by the insatiable TRAs.

But I wish the women giving Kristina a hard time had just said their piece briefly and disengaged. I've seen it said on here that we're writing for lurkers who aren't brave enough yet to join the fray. Same goes for Twitter. And I really did cringe at some of the stuff that was said to Kristina, who is as strong a voice in support of gender critical feminism as any trans person could be.

There are a lot of feminists - particularly lesbian feminists, who feel under siege by boundary-violating males. It is profoundly irritating if someone comments in a kind of detached manner that 'both sides' need understanding/dignity.

YY. Twitter is a minefield. I do think Kristina got jumped on. But I can see why it happened.

Yes I understand what you are saying about lurkers and the uncertain etc langcleg, but I actually don't want transsexuals in women's spaces.
I am sympathetic to the fact that born males with gender dysphoria feel the need to dress, act in certain ways, hoping to appear to be women, in order to relieve their dysphoria, but I am extremely unsympathetic if they also feel entitled to enter women's spaces for validation as part of that relief.
Born males should never cross those lines if they have respect for women. They are not women and never will be.

I am not keen on the level of aggression in some of theose tweets- because of the way it looks. But the pain is real. It never looks pretty when people demonstrate pain. So I have sympathy for the aggressive women outraged as much as the blundering flamee.

Born males should never cross those lines if they have respect for women. They are not women and never will be.

This.

There are certainly many feminists who absolutely give no quarter. And I totally understand why.

If you are saturated with this misogyny on a daily basis, it's really not surprising.

I personally would have reacted differently, but then I don't know what those woman have had to put up with.

This part does worry me. How we are being inured to our own aggression.

But I blame transactivists for that as well.

Although I can be blunt, I am naturally empathetic and don't generally get personal.

But there is no doubt that I sometimes feel a sense of relief when another woman will take it a step further than I feel comfortable with. It makes me wonder where consideration ends and socialisation takes over.

Although, in this case, I didn't think that the initial post warranted that reaction. But only marginally.

Twitter is a minefield

yy - I think Kristina made a mistake by trying to cover too much in so few characters. In essence, of course every person has a right to dignity and to be free of harassment and abuse... but I think that point should have been made with a bit more sensitivity - not easy in a single tweet in that context.

I think if you accept the "trans dignity in the workplace" as an equally important factor in that particular incident the next logical step is that you are supposed to take some responsibility for the trans person's feelings where yours should be paramount. Perhaps Kristina didn't mean it like that but it was a clumsy tone deaf tweet IMO. Blundering, as GuardianLions said.

It makes me wonder where consideration ends and socialisation takes over.

Indeed, although there is the added pressure. Feminists are fighting from the disadvantaged position. We have to smile, spoonfeed, cajole, soothe, charm and delight in order to not be dismissed outright by those in power or those who prefer to bury their heads in the sand.

When we get 'too angry' it is never great PR for the cause- even though we have a fuckload to be extremely angry about.

GuardianLions

I'm inclined to accept that old-school transsexuals find themselves in an impossible position once they've completed a physical transition and so I've no objection to them using women's loos and all the rest of it. I may be swayed in this by dint of having a good friend who is transsexual! But I don't think any male-born person, ever, should be permitted to take affirmative action programme places or be in positions where they are representing women. And I think EA single sex exemptions should be strengthened and widely used.

And yes. I have great sympathy for the flamers, too. Everyone is raw and we all feel under siege. I don't wish they hadn't spoken at all. I just think they carried it on too long, which made for a bit of a gender critical PR disaster.

The moral of that thread is that if you have pent up anger, when you let it out be aware who/what you're targetting.

When you're making statements in public, have an eye on how it will look to disinterested bystanders.

Gender critical women, especially lesbian feminists as I believe most of the posters were, are constantly being gaslighted and emotionally blackmailed on social media. As well as bullied for their sexuality in the case of lesbians.

I can't believe that twitter is taken as seriously as it is. To me, it is a sign that the world is going to hell.

I know what you mean!

The moral of that thread is that if you have pent up anger, when you let it out be aware who/what you're targeting.

Indeed nauticant - because this can definitely put off potential allies.

When you're making statements in public, have an eye on how it will look to disinterested bystanders.

And I would go further. Antfeminist MRAs are always on the look out for new ways to divide and conquer- so wrongly interested bystanders are equally concerning.

I was a bit harsh to label these women “arseholes” when I know nothing about their personal experiences. And of course it’s understandable that they are angry, but my point was they are directing their anger at the wrong person!

I struggle to find anything offensive in Katrina’s tweet. She explicitly criticises the nurse for not showing proper sensitivity to women’s needs. Yes, she also says transgender people have rights to dignity at work but she’s not suggesting that is at the expense of women. It’s down to the hospital to ensure that, if a female patient asks to be seen by a female nurse, she doesn’t get a transwoman.

I’m well aware women are socialised to be nice, accommodating doormats but surely we can put our points across firmly without resorting to personal unkind attacks against potential allies. Yes, the comments on there were not as bad as “kill the TERF!!” but if I was Katrina, I’d be very hurt to be spoken to that way by people who I am trying to support.

if I was Katrina, I’d be very hurt to be spoken to that way by people who I am trying to support.

Of course - but then I think Rachel Dolezal probably felt hurt by the way she was treated too.

In fact I have been stung badly myself when I have made inappropriate comments - blundering around out of my depth, and yes, it hurts, but - I fucked up. So did Kristina.

I struggle to find anything offensive in Katrina’s tweet.

You don't think it seemed minimising to make a statement about 'dignity at work for transpeople' in the context of a story about a pervy, work-place, vulnerable-woman's-boundary violator TIM? Really ???

You don't think it seemed minimising to make a statement about 'dignity at work for transpeople' in the context of a story about a pervy, work-place, vulnerable-woman's-boundary violator TIM? Really ???

Yeah. I'm going with socialisation. Firmly.

What other situation would you be expected to take into account the feelings of somebody of that ilk.

Yeah. I'm going with socialisation. Firmly.

What other situation would you be expected to take into account the feelings of somebody of that ilk.

And I'm going with Kristina's male socialisation firmly too. I mean - how male is it to overlook the shudder inducing transgression of women's boundaries and think about the TIM's presumed indignity in that context , let alone tweet about it? Its just - What about the men? What about the men? Lip service to women... but... What about the men?

There was someone on the original mumsnet thread making the same whataboutism argument. Sure the patient matters but this nurses dignity was insulted when the patient refused to submit to him.
Women are sick and tired of it and they aren't being nice about it any more. I confess it warms my crotchety old second wave heart.
I disagree that it is bad for feminism when women stand up and say eff you to those who play whataboutism.

Like when the argument is skirted around by people: "well of course any patient should be able to reject care for any reason" without acknowledging that the point is because it was a male identifying as a woman. I've seen the same done with the cotton ceiling. "Well of course no one should be forced to have sex with anyone, you can reject someone for any reason". Yes, but the point here is that a lesbian is a homosexual female. It's important not to let people fudge it like that.

When we get 'too angry' it is never great PR for the cause- even though we have a fuckload to be extremely angry about.

^This

Women are sick and tired of it and they aren't being nice about it any more. I confess it warms my crotchety old second wave heart.
I disagree that it is bad for feminism when women stand up and say eff you to those who play whataboutism.

^And this

I also didn't see any 'arseholes'... just women who are fed up and are not willing to play nice anymore. And if that is shocking for you, have a bit of a think about socialisation of women contrasted with the TERF hate that is seen on a regular basis, almost to the point of not being very shocking anymore.

That is a robust discussion, not abuse. I like Kristina but they are coming from a very different perspective and there will be clashes. I worry that trans ness grants men saint like status, even when they are trying to gain access to naked women. I mean who knew that THE most oppressed would be cross dressing men.

Women will disagree, why shouldn't they? There is this pressure on women that before we speak we must be peeeeeeeerfect, look at Hilary.

If we veer even slightly into cross it is shocking. W are so used to male voices and angry male voices that we just absorb them. Angry women though, wow, society is not ready for them.

I engage on Twitter a lot and I stick to calm, factual and polite. We probably need more angry women tbh, calm hasn't got us anywhere has it and it wouldn't have got us the vote 100 years ago.

Sorry rambling now.