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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

To combat violence against women we should concentrate on violence between males

16 replies

CrestedTit · 30/12/2017 07:47

I was discussing this with a friend yesterday and wondered what you guys thought.

The idea was that there is already a (theoretical) moral norm against men hitting women/boys hitting girls yet violence against women is still prevalent. Maybe if the focus was shifted from "you can't hit this subsection of people" to "hitting other people is wrong" the message might stick more firmly?

Or maybe I'm talking crap.. (or maybe it is so obvious as to be boring?!)

OP posts:
NotAgainYoda · 30/12/2017 08:17

Well yes I agree, but it's deeper than that. It's about nurturing boys, developing boys' understanding of their own emotions and helping them find other ways of responding to negative emotions than violence.

Ekphrasis · 30/12/2017 09:08

I do agree hugely. Did you see the BBC doc on boys and girls in the summer? They illustrated a clear link between the way boys are socialised at home and at school having a potential impact on male violence due to boys not traditionally being taught emotional literacy and being a boy being synonymous with attributes such as kindness or nurturing or loving (School age). Also the way stereotypical jobs for men and women filter subconsciously to children - women in caring roles and men in 'brave strong' roles.

guardianfree · 30/12/2017 09:08

Agreed yoda about nurturing boys emotionally. Society would also have to make a major shift from 'glorifying' and celebrating male violence in films / programmes. I can't see that happening any day soon.

And what about something like Game of Thrones? Levels of shocking visceral violence, but not just restricted to male characters, some very violent women characters? It feels as if the levels of violence depicted online and film / TV / news outlets are partly responsible for an increased 'tolerance' of violence?

Ekphrasis · 30/12/2017 09:09

being a boy not* being synonymous with attributes such as...

Ekphrasis · 30/12/2017 09:09

Guardian I agree that that's another angle too.

ClareCAIS · 30/12/2017 09:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CritEqual · 30/12/2017 09:25

An absolute huge one is to stop smacking/hitting children as a form of discipline. This happens more to boys, and it's hardly surprising that if authority is backed up with violence, once grown up and statistically larger, men go on to perpetuate more violence.

MentholBreeze · 30/12/2017 09:25

It's certainly the route I take with mine - hitting is wrong (with an extra 'you need to learn to control yourself, because right now, you're little, and it's only a fat lip you gave your brother, but when you're bigger and stronger, it would be much more serious')

I don't know, mine are still primary aged, but so far they seem pretty aware of others (DS1 just had an email heart to heart involving many emojis, with a best friend who moved away, but they yelled at each other on her last day) - I certainly think that teaching them the whys, and making them think about what might happen works better than flat rules - and I think that'll prepare them for adult life in many other ways as well.

What we do about the people who are adults already? I don't know. I don't want to think it's just something we have to wait a couple of generations to fix though!

Ekphrasis · 30/12/2017 15:46

"What their father did was not unpredictable, random or unstoppable, Luke insists. It was part of a familiar pattern of male violence, carried out by a man with what Luke describes as “traditional masculine views”. Lance Hart was an ordinary man, who had no mental illness; he was like many other ordinary men who kill their families."

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jun/17/we-didnt-recognise-that-he-was-dangerous-our-father-killed-our-mother-and-sister?CMP=fb_gu

losamsterdamos · 30/12/2017 16:47

when boys are growing up their parents hammer into them "don't hit girls/women" but parents tend to not care when their own boys hit or fight other boys. Apprently boys fighting each other is just "oh boys will be boys" an attitude which the boys grow up with and hold onto when they become men.

Why don't parents just tell their kids "don't hit anyone"?

CritEqual · 30/12/2017 19:42

I'll leave this here:

edition.cnn.com/2017/12/05/health/spanking-dating-violence-study/index.html

It's really not rocket science, being spanked is a predictor of domestic violence in later life. Boys are physically disciplined more often than girls, and also go on to hit their partners more often.

What needs to happen is a lot more introspective reflection on how we parent and go foward with non-violent parenting strategies. Furthermore mothers hit their sons more often than fathers so it's hardly surprising how upon being hit by their mothers a lot of boys grow up with complex negative attitudes towards women, and indeed love and affection itself.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 30/12/2017 23:08

It seems the basic starting point. On the "men's day" thread I mentioned that I don't know any violent men and never have had violent men in my life.

I asked a slightly flippant question along the lines of what makes the men I know, who do not hit men, women, children or animals different from those who do. I think education definitely comes into and possibly class, but that can't be the whole story. Physical build and strength definitely isn't.

I suspect if you analysed their backgrounds the common feature would be growing up in households which were not violent, hitting or intimidating people is not the answer and where they were taught empathy.

So how do we break the cycle of violence?

NotAgainYoda · 31/12/2017 06:49

losamsterdamos

I think what you've said may be true in old-fashioned households where boys and girls are perceived very differently

Ekphrasis · 31/12/2017 08:50

*I suspect if you analysed their backgrounds the common feature would be growing up in households which were not violent, hitting or intimidating people is not the answer and where they were taught empathy.

So how do we break the cycle of violence?*

It's huge and multi layered. Robert Webb's book how not to be a boy has a lot in it that illustrates the pressures boys are under - as you say though, not all men are violent and he certainly had a very empathetic side from being very young.

Every part of society is involved in this, so all parts of society need to change. Gender roles are still very ingrained subconsciously everywhere which is a factor. There's been a lot on empowering women / girls over the years but as the parent of a boy I feel boys aren't being focussed on in terms of the flip side to 'girl empowerment' - that boys can be extremely kind and empathetic - in books and the media and films. It's right to work tirelessly on girls' stereotyping, of course it is, bit I'm not seeing the opposite being done consistently for boys, personally.

I fully believe in nature then nurture, or the two together. I do wonder if the fact that some children are born more or less naturally empathetic (R Webb describes helping an injured bee while knowing he was 'supposed' to stamp on it) - not gender specific - but also that how a child is nurtured can impact that empathy (children taught about theory of mind became better at lying for example, they could also become better at being empathetic to others' feelings). However as girls generally get a richer exposure to empathetic caring upbringing via wider society outside the home (eg toys, books, stories, tv) and boys less so, and may be actively encouraged to "toughen up" at home, things become unbalanced.

We've even had nappy ads recently still perpetuating gender stereotypes. There's a constant drip drip drip of subtle inequality in how children should be thought of by adults according to their sex.

Until I had a boy and until I ventured into the feminist boards of mn I was oblivious to it. And yet thought of myself as progressive, feminist etc. I went along with the whole "it's typical boys behaviour." A child in my son's class who we've known since birth is very immature and boisterous and pushes and hits other children and being tall and strong dominates them easily. I remember his mother saying that Nursery teachers reassured her over this behaviour, saying "it's boys! That's what they're like!" Ie don't worry too much. I suspect there'd be more concern about psych referrals if it was a girl doing the same.

(Oops, longer than I meant it to be!)

Ekphrasis · 31/12/2017 08:51

(That should say "not sex specific" 🙄)

Weezol · 31/12/2017 19:02

I think there are a lot of free passes given to men who are violent to other men 'Oh but he was wound up/drunk/stoned/stressed' etc.

I have raised this IRL and got mixed responses, however nobody has ever disagreed with my default position of 'People shouldn't hit people'.

I believe it is down to socialisation and that if that socialisation is reinforced in adulthood things will never change.

Any strategies I come up with always default to early intervention, but until there is a national discussion and some bloody funding I don't know how we do this.

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