The rape trials/evidence stuff

[QuentinSummers]

The Met have initiated an urgent review into rape investigations after two trials collapsed.
Thought I would start a thread as it looks like this story will run and run.

The narrative seems to be "vindictive women", "pressure to convict" and "cherry picking evidence. Rather than a more nuanced look at police funding, the difficulties of analysing huge amounts of computer/phone Data, protecting the right to privacy of the victim and not disclosing irrelevant info about their previous or current sex life.

I'm concerned the way this is being reported by the media is going to lead to a huge backlash against women reporting rapes and undo any progress in better reporting/prosecution of sex crimes. And thus damage the chances of justice for victims.

I don't want the thread to be deleted so please no comments about motivations of specific women involved

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-42417553

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-42417553

Absolutely agree that the way cases seem to be reported is awful. You only have to read the comments on the daily mail (I know) to see that a non-guilty verdict is seen as a vindictive woman, poor man who's life has been ruined etc

I have just looked on the BBCs reporting and it seems to be fairly sensible, focusing on the importance of evidence being presented rather than a 'women are all liars' narrative. I haven't looked on the DM and provably won't tbh.

I think it's a shame that the police seem to be fucking this up as whilst I want to see more men brought to justice for sex crimes, I don't want innocent men to go to jail because the correct evidence wasn't presented at the right time. It's really important that our justice system is transparent and protocol is followed.

I think generally though this is going to be a big blow to progress being made wrt victims of rape and sexual assault

I'm extremely concerned that after decades of activism, we have reached this point.

Funny how, with 85,000+ rapes every year and a ridiculously low conviction rate, the thing that seems to attract the most concern is two cases where police fucked up and jeopardised the freedom of two men due to lack of funding. Almost like men are more important eh?

Who gives a fuck about 85,000 women subjected to horrific violence when we have two men to think about?

They were talking on R4 at lunchtime about how the police are swamped with evidence, with increase in people alleging rape & sexual assault and they simply can't cope. This was from an investigation in 2015.

We know that the vast majority or rape and sexual assault victims still DON'T come forward despite this increase. It is great more are feeling they can report attacks against them, but it is almost as if they are being now told "not to bother us with this" AGAIN.

This is ultimately very damaging for victims and will mean those who feel strong enough to report such a crime, will now think twice.

Women are being let down over and over and over ....

And rather than the focus being on this massive problem of rape culture, sexual assaults, and the victims of this, this shoddy underfunded policing has now resulted in people calling for those charge of sexual assault/rape to have anonymity - and we all know why this isn't advisable.

It's almost like the government hates women ......

Police have been subject to many cuts (like all public services under austerity) the same time as a surge in victims coming forward and reporting rapes.

It does seem to me that what we need is some kind off full scale public inquiry/investigation into rape culture, prostitution, porn, sexual violence etc so we can start to make some "joined up" society wide decisions and legislation, victims can be properly supported, and criminals targeted and charged.

I really worry that this might pave the way for anonymity for those accused of rape. If the wider public become keener on it, and some opportunistic politicians decide it's a populist policy then I can see it being pushed through.

Or it could lead to fewer hopeless or unjust prosecutions, therefore fewer cases that are thrown out and as a flow on effect less reports of false rape accusations/less scrutiny of accusers etc. The police shouldn't be pushing the CPS to prosecute if there isn't strong evidence to support the accusation.

Surely the duty of the Police is to give the defence team all the evidence they have in a timely manner? No matter what the crime. If they do not do that, it fundamentally attacks the justice system in this country that relies on a professional
Police force and honesty.

Both these cases were investigated by the same officer so it is very worrying. Apparently lots of evidence is handed over very late to defence teams and now 30 other cases about to go to court where this officer has been involved are being looked at. No matter what you think of the alleged crime, we must trust the police.

I don’t think anyone really thinks that these two cases reduce the seriousness of rape. What it does expose though, is a police force that has spent its valuable time on wrongly pursuing two men because they did not investigate properly. It appears to be deliberately withholding evidence. That is not acceptable in our society that depends on honest policing. They could have investigated real crimes against women in this time and that’s the greatest loss to women.

Most commentators are concerned about what this says about police integrity and you cannot have anyone convicted on the basis of withheld evidence that would have proved they were innocent. It does not matter who the accused is, man or woman!

I absolutely think the police need to massively improve what they're doing and disclose all evidence properly. I think it's incredibly disappointing that the police seem to have been in such a shambles. The question is whether it's one police officer not doing their job properly, or one unit not doing what they should or a wider problem with all police forces.

What I am worried about is this situation being used to further the cause of anonymity for those accused of rape, when really this has got nothing to do with that. And also that this will be used as fuel for those who want to paint all women as wicked liars out to ruin innocent men's lives.

what we need is some kind off full scale public inquiry/investigation into rape culture, prostitution, porn, sexual violence etc so we can start to make some "joined up" society wide decisions and legislation,

But you know that’s never going to happen. People will never see the link between porn and rape because nobody wants to see that the collective regard for women as the sex class has any bearing on the prevalence of sex crimes against them.

People are either stupid or wilfully ignorant.

The big issue here is not what people may say in defence of men, it’s the fact that our justice system is being undermined by the police. It is not in anyone's interest for this poor policing to be allowed. It is, in effect, “framing” the accused and it feels like persecution and collusion to ensure a guilty verdict before anything gets to the CPS, let alone trial. That undermines our whole system of justice which relies upon disclosure of evidence. It affects women as much as men as we all need confidence in the system.

There is now a review looking at training and resources in the Met to meet their obligations regarding disclosure of evidence.

I think all will be ok as long as this inquiry doesn't turn up a number of innocent men languishing in prison. For if that happens the backlash will be massive and extreme. Considering how difficult it is to achieve a conviction as it is how likely is that?

it’s the fact that our justice system is being undermined by the police. It is not in anyone's interest for this poor policing to be allowed
There is no money so fewer officers and support staff, while simultaneously technology has made the amount of material the police have to go through in cases like this grow and grow.
It's not a question of "allowing poor policing". It's a symptom of our public services falling apart due to a prolonged period of cuts.
This is what I find most frustrating. Blame the police for "fitting people up". Blame the women for being "vindictive". Don't consider the reasons this is happening.

Great article here by Julie Bindel

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/20/problem-rape-prosecution-women-lying-collapse-liam-allan-victims

Speaking generally there is a problem with funding being cut. Safeguarding departments are understaffed, the demand increases as more victims come forward but also technology is more complicated than ever before and this is a massive problem for the police.
An iPhone is like a mini computer- thousands of files, messages and now whatsapp s, instagrams, etc., they can take ages to review and things can be missed.
Police are not able to keep up with lack of numbers in the increased complexity of investigating crime.

I don't want to go full-on conspiracy, but isn't it funny that this has come out just after the #MeToo revelations? Feels like a backlash.

I don't think that's a conspiracy at all hackmum. Men are seizing it to put us back in our place. And of course it's massive clickbait for papers. As Julie says, no-one cares when other cases collapse due to dodgy disclosure.

QuentinSummers, very well put. I just shouted pretty much the same at my telly.

don't think that's a conspiracy at all hackmum. Men are seizing it to put us back in our place. And of course it's massive clickbait for papers. As Julie says, no-one cares when other cases collapse due to dodgy disclosure.

YY.

The Bindel article is good, as usual.

The day the Liam Allan case collapsed, I turned PM on at 5 o'clock as usual. The first item was about the case, so I turned it off deciding to turn it on again later when they'd finished. Five minutes later, I turned it on and they were talking about it. Five minutes later, still talking about it. They only stopped discussing the case at 5.20 - that's a whole 20 minutes on one story about a man being (possibly) wrongly accused. How can they justify that?

Anonymity for the accused is popular among the public as-long as the alleged rapist is otherwise seen as a nice guy who is clearly a victim of false allegations. Equally many people would favour the opposite- no anomility at all for both parties.

that's a whole 20 minutes on one story about a man being (possibly) wrongly accused. How can they justify that?

Slow news day - plus the main thrust of the piece on the radio was about how the Police are failing in their legal duty to disclose evidence, (especially evidence detrimental to the prosecution's case) to the defence.