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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Religiously, men claimed women were sent from the devil to lead men astray. What does this tell us about men's cultures

52 replies

AsMenDclaredWomenTheirInferior · 14/12/2017 14:29

So what does this tell us about men's cultures?

OP posts:
fabulousfrumpyfeet · 14/12/2017 18:07

Couldn't read your twitter link so don't know what that said, but in authentic sources Adam and Eve take equal responsibility. Sadly I have heard Muslims teaching that Eve led Adam astray but as far as I can tell that is incorrect.

fuzzywuzzy · 14/12/2017 18:11

No Muslims don’t think Eve led Adam, it’s more Satan led them astray.

And they were forgiven after repenting.

AsMenDclaredWomenTheirInferior · 14/12/2017 18:21

@ThelastSoala MrsTerryPratchett

"I don’t think it’s big news that there has been a dominance of misogyny across every culture in he world for the past few millennia."

Actually that is not what I am talking about, I am talking about the fact all these cultures are exclusively males and males wanted son's not daughters.

Females are seen as an unwanted burden in cultures where masculinity is idolised.

Men prefer dead females to living ones..

. As the ancient Chinese philosopher Han Fei Tzu once put it, "As to children, a father and mother when they produce a boy congratulate one another, but when they produce a girl they put it to death"

As men across the world declared women their inferior,
men went on a killing spree, slaughtering millions of females

and those females men did not murder, men hurriedly pushed into corners to confine them and cage them in and acting just like parasites men then sucked on women's resources with the sole intent to produce more of themselves..

The significance of this one single idea
changed the course of history for ever!

OP posts:
AssassinatedBeauty · 14/12/2017 18:27

What you describe is misogyny. I don't know why you reject that description.

AsMenDclaredWomenTheirInferior · 14/12/2017 18:52

Men saw females as outsiders, as interlopers, people who were a drag on their male utopias who were holding them back and ruining them for men.

Nazi's did not tell the Jews
"you will not live here"
*Nazi's told the Jews
"you will not live!"

OP posts:
Jellybean85 · 14/12/2017 19:35

It's a somewhat strange argument you're putting forward, and some of the historical preference for sons was because they went out to Work and were physically stronger etc, many cultures and religions were very of course very sexist, I would be more interested in hearing what relevance you think those ancient scriptures hold today. Women struggle and are oppressed, abused and ignored. I don't think you've hit on the holy grail of reasons why though

AsMenDclaredWomenTheirInferior · 14/12/2017 21:35

@Jellybean85

"and some of the historical preference for sons was because they went out to Work"
Surely everyone worked, even the children worked.

So why would men want to slaughter their daughters and force their wives to try again and produce them son's instead?

“What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother,
it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman…
I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function
of bearing children.”

  • Saint Augustine
(the prominent pioneer of Western theology)
OP posts:
SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 14/12/2017 21:39

So, what AssassinatedBeauty said at the start of the thread: misogyny and patriarchy.

honeysucklejasmine · 14/12/2017 21:42

This is the second quasi religious thread I've seen from you, OP. I'm not really sure what you're trying to discuss, or achieve, with them.

AfunaMbatata · 14/12/2017 21:43

Have you been sniffing a prit-stick op?

AsMenDclaredWomenTheirInferior · 14/12/2017 21:43

AssassinatedBeauty

"What you describe is misogyny. I don't know why you reject that description."

Yes it is misogyny but what you haven't looked at is why and we need to know why?

So, do you have an answer?

OP posts:
mrwalkensir · 14/12/2017 21:44

yep - think it was Augustine who pretty much said "that nun walking past - if you look really carefully you might see an ankle because she's trying to seduce you" - very very influential in the church. Grim

MrsTerryPratchett · 14/12/2017 21:55

I think misogyny in religion comes from misogyny socially. Not the other way around. Because people invented religion, not the other way around.

Do you want a discussion of where misogyny came from? Because I have some theories about that as well. But religion is a symptom.

Icantreachthepretzels · 14/12/2017 22:15

The thing that surprised me about the Adam and Eve story when I actually took the time to read it in an actual bible is a) there are 2 completely different stories that put the order of creation differently. In the first one the two unnamed people are made at the same time on the sixth day. In the second Eve is made of Adam's rib. In order to explain this scholars made up the idea of Lilith, the first wife who always wanted to have sex on top and so argued over dominance. She flew away from the garden (with those wings that women used to have) and then sat by a river murdering babies. Even though at this time there were no babies and there was no death because Adam and Eve were still in the garden.

As hilarious as the backstory to Lilith, who's only actual appearance in scripture is 'so God created human beings, making them to be like himself. He created them male and female', is; It's interesting that they took this time to explain this discrepancy. There are way more discrepancies between the two versions than this. in the second version of the story (the version with Eve) you lose the whole days structure and the little man is created before the plants and the animals.

Why did scholars spend so much time coming up with a backstory for the original woman, explaining how she did exist but then disappeared, but neglected to do the same for the original trees and elephants?

b) In the version that Eve appears in, God gives his instructions about which fruit Adam can eat before he creates Eve. He does not seem to go back and reissue his commandments once all interested parties are in attendance. Yet somehow the almighty, omnipotent omnipresent creator of the universe manages to blame this brand new woman for his pretty shocking oversight.

c) As lass pointed out - God really does set them up to fail. Mostly by putting the tree smack bang in the centre of the garden and then drawing attention to it. But also: This is the tree of knowledge - understanding of good and evil, right and wrong. Before they eat from the tree - they don't know right from wrong - so how does God expect them to know that it's wrong to not obey him? He's supposed to be all knowing. He's a fucking idiot!

d) How did the omnipresent, all knowing God manage to miss Eve eating the fruit? There are literally two people on the planet. He can see everything at once. This is the first thing that has ever happened. And he misses it.

E) There is nothing in Genesis that claims the snake is the devil. In the old testament Satan is still good buddies with God, playing with Job's life. It's only the book of revelation, which refers to the devil as 'the ancient serpent' that started this whole 'the snake was the devil' falsehood.

F) God cursed the snake to crawl on his belly as punishment for tricking Eve. Meaning that the snake in the story had feet. Not only could he talk - he could dance! All pictures depicting the garden of Eden should be updated to portray snakey mcsnakeface's feet. (I wonder if all animals in Eden could talk or just the snakes? And whilst striking the snake dumb might seem adequate punishment, why did God pick on the rhinos as well? Or did the animals lose their ability to talk somewhere else? If it was just the snakes, why the snakes? And if all animals can talk and think, why are people the boss? )

Basically the whole thing is just a terrible written story from start to finish, with glaring plot holes you could drive a bus through and demonstrates nothing other than that men have been hating and blaming and mistreating women for their own misdeeds for thousands of years.

Patriarchal religions are misogynistic shocker! Shock I agree with everyone that religion is a tool that misogynistic men use to uphold their own supremacy - it is not the root of the misogyny itself.

Back in Medieval times the church used to teach that men were the true image of God and women were literally deformed men, not a thing in and of themselves, but a bastardisation of God's form. It would be nice, seeing as how science has since proved that is the Y chromosome that is the mutation, if the church could apologise or that nasty little bit of slander.

Jellybean85 · 14/12/2017 22:43

I agree with @MrsTerryPratchett religion is more of a symptom. Misogyny is rife across many religions and cultures, even those with no religion, it didn't come from religion, it was just woven into it the same way it infiltrates many aspects of society

honeysucklejasmine · 14/12/2017 22:59

icant bravo! Thorough entertaining and informative post! Loved it 😂

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 15/12/2017 01:25

Yes , great post Icant

AsMenDclaredWomenTheirInferior · 15/12/2017 03:39

It's misogyny you say?
But still no one has clarified why men hated females?
Obviously misogyny predated religion.

OP posts:
Whowouldfardelsbear · 15/12/2017 04:29

Just some rambling thoughts:

Maybe because (historically and evolutionary speaking) it was in a women's interest to have a man stick around after impregnating her to help provide for her and defend her and her newborn off-spring when she would be unable to. And man would just want to spread as much seed and his genes as possible. While it would be in his interest to defend his children, his chances of having as many healthy children as possible would be limited by women requiring him to stick around.

Maybe as some religions actually encouraged and require men to form stable monogamous relationships, the man finds himself in the position of resenting the woman he ends up with as he cant get away in a socially acceptable manner without being damned.

So men need women to procreate but resent the society that says they must only stick with one.

I am not religious in anyway, but is that what you are getting at?

Havingahorridtime · 15/12/2017 04:47

We're the mushrooms nice OP?

thebewilderness · 15/12/2017 06:20

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do to them.

kinkrules · 15/12/2017 08:11

whowould I think that’s a pretty good point.

kinkrules · 15/12/2017 08:28

"Maybe because (historically and evolutionary speaking) it was in a women's interest to have a man stick around after impregnating her to help provide for her and defend her and her newborn off-spring when she would be unable to. And man would just want to spread as much seed and his genes as possible. While it would be in his interest to defend his children, his chances of having as many healthy children as possible would be limited by women requiring him to stick around."

except the human child is alot more helpless than other mammals so the man would need to stick around alot longer than after newborn stage, in most cultures for 18 or so years to raise them to adulthood. religion inhibits/pacifies men in various ways to get them to stick around that long. controlling womens sexuality especially the emphasis on virginity pre marriage or on chastity after marriage is one device: hijabs/veils/purdah/ etc to convince the man that the offspring he is labouring to protect/clothe/feed are actually his offspring. because a woman cant mistake the child of her womb from another child but a man would not know the child of his loins from another child.

PricklyBall · 15/12/2017 08:41

Coming late to this thread, but can I just thank Lass for her wonderful Scots presbyterian god in her first post telling Adam and Eve to "dae what ye're telt". I can just imagine how much my mum (Edinburgh presbyterian upbringing and staunch atheist as a result) would have laughed at this.

(Incidentally, have you heard the one about the Edinburgh minister arriving at the pearly gates? St. Peter looks at him quizzically and says "well, you can come in, but you won't like it here...")

HintBean · 15/12/2017 08:43

Not all religions. Islam doesn't blame Eve for their exit from heaven. Satan is blamed for leading astray both of them.