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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Which religion treats women the worst?

121 replies

AsMenDclaredWomenTheirInferior · 10/12/2017 18:01

Untenable
is the idea
you can support a male supremacist ideology
whilst saying you still believe in equality for women and girls.

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MultiTaskingMom · 14/12/2017 11:18

@AsMenDclaredWomenTheirInferior

When the Quran permitted fighting, it was always in the context of self-defence. “Permission to fight is given to those against whom war is made, because they have been wronged,” says the Quran. Permission for war was given to early Muslims not just to protect Islam but in order to protect religious freedom for all people. Those who use Islam’s name to justify hateful acts are motivated only by an unquenchable thirst for power.

The Quran promotes a society where Muslims and non-Muslims live in harmony. Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) happily allowed Christians to pray in his mosque.

Any scripture can be misrepresented. The Biblical texts make reference to almost 500 instances of war related verses. Did Jesus not say, “If you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one”? Christians would hate for such verses to be taken out of context and the same applies to the Holy Quran.

Where it is the responsibility of religious people to bring people together, irresponsible comments like yours only promote further hatred within society.

MultiTaskingMom · 14/12/2017 11:41

Lamartine a French historian, writes in his book, History of Turkey, p. 276:

Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may ask, is there any man greater than he?

If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and outstanding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, and empires only. They founded, if any at all, no more than material power which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man merged not only armies, legislation, empires, peoples and dynasties but millions of men in one third of the inhabited world, and more than that, moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and the souls on the basis of a Book, every letter of which has become law. He created a spiritual nationality of every tongue and of every race. (Historie de la Turqu,, Vol. 2, page 76-77)

MultiTaskingMom · 14/12/2017 11:43

REV. BOSWELL SMITH
Head of the state as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one, but he was Pope without the Pope’s pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a body guard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue. If ever a man had the right to rule by a right divine, it was Muhammad for he had all the power without the instruments and without its supports. (Muhammad and Muhammadanism )

On the whole, the wonder is not how much but how little, under different circumstances, Muhammad differed from himself. In the shepherd of the desert, in the Syrian trader,in the solitary of Mount Hira, in the reformer in the minority of one, in the exile of Madinah, in the acknowledged conqueror, in the equal of the Persian Chosroes and the Greek Heraclius, we can still trace substantial unity. I doubt whether any other man whose external conditions changed so much, ever himself changed less to meet them.

MultiTaskingMom · 14/12/2017 11:44

A modern research scholar of Islam Karen Armstrong, wrote in her book:

Muhammad had to start virtually from scratch and work his way towards the radical monotheistic spirituality of his own. When he began his mission, a dispassionate observer would not have given him a chance. The Arabs, he might have objected, were just not ready for monotheism: they were not sufficently developed for this sophisticated vision. In fact, to attempt to introduce it on a large scale in this violent, terrifying society could be extremely dangerous and Muhammad would be lucky to escape with his life.

Indeed, Muhammad was frequently in deadly peril and his survival was a near-miracle. But he did succeed. By the end of his life he had laid an axe to the root of the chronic cycle tribal violence that afflicted the region and paganism was no longer a going concern. The Arabs were ready to embark on a new phase of their history. (Muhammad – A Biography of the Prophet page 53-54)

Finally it was the West, not Islam, which forbade the open discussion of religious matters. At the time of the Crusades, Europe seemed obsessed by a craving for intellectual conformity and punished its deviants with a zeal that has been unique in the history of religion. The witch-hunts of the inquisitors and the persecution of Protestants by the Catholics and vice versa were inspired by abtruse theoligical opinions which in both Judaism and Islam were seen as private and optional matters. Neither Judaism nor Islam share the Christian conception of heresy, which raises human ideas about the divine to an unacceptably high level and almost makes them a form of idolatry. The period of the Crusades, when the fictional Mahound was established, was also a time of the great strain and denial in Europe. This is graphically expressed in the phobia about Islam. (Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, page 27).

MultiTaskingMom · 14/12/2017 11:48

MAJOR A. LEONARD
If ever any man on this earth has found God; if ever any man has devoted his life for the sake of God with a pure and holy zeal then, without doubt, and most certainly that man was the Holy Prophet of Arabia.
(Islam, its Moral and Spiritual Values, p. 9; 1909, London)

MultiTaskingMom · 14/12/2017 11:51

It was lovely speaking to you ladies, the thread started off with a topic about treatment of women in different faiths but @AsMenDclaredWomenTheirInferior turned the thread into a vile attack on Islam. I hope you found the answers by Muslim women knowledgeable. Goodbye and peace to everyone

VerticalBlinds · 14/12/2017 12:05

I'm not sure I can get through all these recent posts.

From a bogstandard completely normal feminist perspective, all religions are problematic, given that whatever they write in their books they all end up oppressing women. Plus of course many have oppressing women written into their books.

Which isn't of course to say that individual woman can't be / shouldn't be religious because of course many are, and those who hold the above belief as well, deal with that as best they can.

The use of oppression of women in majority muslim countries as proof that somehow muslim people are different to other sorts of people is a classic racist tactic - see the reaction when a muslim mad commits a sex crime vs a white man committing the exact same crime. The people who shout about protecting women and girls in these situations have no interest in women or girls past keeping "what is theirs", it's best to stay away from them.

Having said all that the phrase "Besides this, the Quran itself testifies to its own purity and integrity in several places." is the most useless piece of proof I've seen in a while Grin

NameChanger22 · 14/12/2017 12:09

I think all religions are pretty bad. I don't know the worst, but I think the best is atheism (some people say it's a religion).

MissUnderwood · 14/12/2017 12:19

If you were asking which cult I'd say transgenderism. The most misogynistic of them all.

lunamoth581 · 14/12/2017 12:29

Lol, all of them do. The answer is all patriarchal religions oppress women. Even atheism has it's misogynistic side. So believe in a god, don't believe in a god, it's all the same. If you're a woman, you get the short end of the deal. Always.

AsMenDclaredWomenTheirInferior · 14/12/2017 14:44

They came here to proselytise the words of a dead schizophrenic,
who if he was alive today, no one would believe one single word he said not even them would believe him and all his claims would be put down to just a poor sad soul suffering from some mental illness, and his delusional claims were nothing more than that.!

Religiously men believe in their own pomposity and in their own vanity it flatters their fragile ego's to imagine they are something they are not.

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AsMenDclaredWomenTheirInferior · 14/12/2017 14:58

All religions come from men's own fantasy and they fantasise they are heroes when nothing could be further from the truth but try telling men that and they will explode into a puff of hot flaming smoke.

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Puremince · 15/12/2017 15:31

Jesus thought his power drained when a man pointed out a women on her period touched him

That's not what the story says, wincy 79. According to the Bible the woman had been bleeding for 12 years, and no doctor had been able to cure her. She thought that if she touched Jesus she might be cured. When she touched his cloak, she immediately felt that the bleeding had stopped. Jesus turned round because he had felt his healing energies or healing powers leave him. When he saw her he told her to go in peace, and be well..

There are three versions of the story in different gospels, some shorter, some longer (e.g. only one account states that she was impoverished by paying for doctors), but all three say that she had been bleeding for 12 years, which is different from being "on her period"

There's enough misogyny in the Bible without having to twist a story like this one.

Babdoc · 16/12/2017 09:00

I think you’re misinterpreting the passage. The woman was not having a period, she was suffering from a chronic illness causing intractable vaginal bleeding. When, in faith, she touched Jesus’ robe, she was spontaneously healed - Jesus was aware of that healing power being emitted from Him, and felt it as a draining of spiritual energy. I’m a feminist myself, (Church of Scotland, we’ve had female priests for 50 years, and several national leaders of the church,called Moderators, over the years), and I can’t see how you can possibly view that Bible passage as misogynist?

Puremince · 18/12/2017 11:43

Are you replying to me, Babdoc? I was replying to wincy79, the first line of my post was quoting her. However, my attempt at italics failed. I'm also a CofS feminist, there are quite a few of us!

Babdoc · 18/12/2017 12:46

Hello, Puremince! I’m relatively new to Mumsnet, and was replying directly to the original post - I didn’t realise it would appear under yours and look like an answer to your own post. Delighted to encounter another feminist Christian. So many folk assume all Christian sects are fundamentalist misogynists, and that Christian women must be dim, submissive and brainwashed - as a doctor and feminist I find that really irritating! Sometimes it’s hard to keep fighting the tide of ill informed and sneering atheists. But I try to forgive them...!

BlindYeo · 18/12/2017 13:04

All the major religions are oppressive towards women. The major religions reflect men's (as a class) desire to control women.

Countries which are highly religious do not have a good track record of embracing women's political rights.

It is enlightening to take a look at which countries have the largest majorities of which religion and then decide which country one would most/least like to live in, as a native woman. Speaks volumes to me.

I do not think examples of e.g. Muslim women in the UK can be used as examples of women being politically empowered regardless of their religion, because Islam is not the historically native religion to the UK and thus UK society and its rules and laws have not been moulded by it.

Rights and freedoms exercised here are the rights and freedoms women have fought for in a society which has evolved alongside the Protestant/Anglican religion which in my opinion is a relatively mild religion these days in terms of its desire and ability to control people, and which correlates (effect both ways) with a highly tolerant society, relatively speaking. Even so, it has been hard enough to get the rights we have fought for.

If anyone wishes to argue that of women of a certain religion e.g Islam are politically empowered and not socially fettered by religion, I would like them to show me how that political empowerment works in a country in which that religion is a large majority and highly embedded in the politics of that country. Because that is the real test.

Puremince · 18/12/2017 14:34

Hi, Babdoc - yes, as a feminist and an Elder of the Kirk,it's irritating to be regarded as a bit dim. Although I find it more irritating that people assume that if you are a Christian, you must also be pro-life, homophobic etc.

kinkrules · 20/12/2017 08:15

blindyeo with all due respect, women in the christian west had to fight for freedoms because the christianity of the 'bible' did not give them any rights. no right to have money, inherit, divorce, vote etc. the Protestant Anglican religion is a mild religion NOW because its teeth have been pulled by the secularists and rightly so. in the process of saying they needed rights they had to argue against their holy book and subvert certain concepts and passages that were there in black and white. you had to go up against the priests and vicars to change that.

its the opposite for muslim women, the Quran and body of scripture called the hadith have many statements in support of women as their own agents but it is not priests who have the power to subvert that but the religious jurists who subvert that. the process of how religious law is made involves canonisation of scripture into law, the scripture itself is not law.

so, where the Quran says women have the right to divorce, marry, inherit, vote, they have the right to alimony, that the Muslim woman's testimony in a case of adultery overcomes the husband's testimony, then Muhammad's own statements - outside of the Quran - against domestic violence, his example in marrying divorcees and widows to forge links with various tribes, etc alot of that means muslim feminists dont see the scripture as hostile. as a PROTOTYPE for womens rights the islamic scripture texts are good, ok. not brilliant. in fact even, very progressive for their time and even up until the last century.

to the west Muhammad is the violent prophet who married a 9 year old girl.

to muslim women his words and statements become an ally. When the prophet muhammad (pbuh) found out that people were having anal sex with their wives in order to prevent pregnancy he forbade that but allowed them to do other methods to prevent pregnancy. it is why as a conservative muslim woman now I feel free to use contraception without being a sinner as a Catholic might. he (pbuh) also declared the fetus has no soul before 120 days and that in the modern times has made leeway for muslim women to use contraception that prevents implantation after fertilisation, even the morning after pill. even abortion in some cases is allowed before 120 days and afterwards only to save the mothers life. a catholic woman cannot do that without breaking a large principle about sanctity of life. whereas muhammad was far more pragmatic.

so islam practised conservatively can still allow alot of leeway for muslim women. the problem as i said early is jurists and the way they canonise certain scripture into law whilst leaving out other scripture. because the jurists are overwhelmingly male, this tends to cement patriarchy, rule by the father.

so some statements in support of muslim women from scripture, we share amongst ourselves as encouragement or morality tales, but we know it has no standing in the sharia court. because it has not been canonised into law. the jurists cannot alter the words of the Quran, nor the hadith. but they can decide what makes it into law.

and this isnt always negative as in the case of fighting islamic extremism, war verses in the Quran are overwhelmingly taken as historical stories by muslims because jurists say this is not to take literally but this is to learn from. where as the ISIS extremist says 'that is the utopia all must strive to gain'. which scripture is 'on' which scripture is 'off', depends on tradition, which tends to mean womens rights get lost in the process, but then the arguments for the extremists are also lost.

and it is because of that muslim women step carefully on this:what route to take? accept it passively because the bigger conflagration of violent extremism needs fighting first? get rid of the conservatives but then the liberal muslims do not have the common language with the extremists to truck with them.

mirime · 20/12/2017 12:38

@NameChanger22

I think all religions are pretty bad. I don't know the worst, but I think the best is atheism (some people say it's a religion).

Some branches of neo-paganism are feminist so they're probably the best, in that equality for women is central to their beliefs.

Being a misogynist wouldn't be going against the (non-) beliefs of atheism.

AsMenDclaredWomenTheirInferior · 20/12/2017 13:34

"Some branches of neo-paganism are feminist so they're probably the best, in that equality for women is central to their beliefs."

You mean where women are seen as goddess's?
Which is about all about fertility and sex..

Which religion treats women the worst?
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