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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A quick question on the human rights currently denied to trans identifying people

35 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/12/2017 15:29

I keep seeing that trans identifying people are fighting for their human rights - could someone explain to me which human rights are currently being denied to them (in the UK) as I have been unable to find this out.

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pisacake · 09/12/2017 15:55

I think it's more a case of a lot of TRA being the sort of wanker who would have complained about black one-legged lesbians getting extra privileges. Now they have worked out a way to turn that round and identify as oppressed, and they are milking it for all its worth. Being total narcissists.

FattyCat · 09/12/2017 15:55

None really. Being Trans is already a protected characteristic under the equalities act.

What they are campaigning for is to self identify as women , without having to take hormones or have surgery, and still have access to women's spaces and roles. For e.g. the current "willies in Topshop changing rooms" debate.

Problem is that what this is actually an erosion of hard fought for women's rights.

I'm knackered so apologies if post makes no sense at all

HermioneWeasley · 09/12/2017 16:03

None. They want the right to compel other people to agree with them and be able to do whatever they want. This is not a human rights violation. Look at the pile on jack Monroe when she said that Lily Madigan wasn’t beyond criticism becaus he’s trans - she was sent endless messages telling her to kill herself. Nice.

abouttimeforanotherone · 09/12/2017 16:03

From having read numerous threads on here, it seems that they want the right to have more rights than anyone else...

RavingRoo · 09/12/2017 16:04

Trans men and women can still be put into their birth sex prisons. This results in nastiness all around - for example, there have been instances where trans women were raped in male prisons, and where trans men attacked women.

There is also the fact that some organisations are still discriminating against having trans employees despite anti-discrimination legislation - e.g faith schools, the army / miliary, GCHQ etc. Some faith schools do it even though being transgender is an accepted part of their religion! Until 2014 trans people had to divorce or annual their marriages to obtain a Gender recognition certificate - thank God that’s changed, but imagine this hurt the community quite a bit.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/12/2017 16:10

°Trans men and women can still be put into their birth sex prisons. This results in nastiness all around - for example, there have been instances where trans women were raped in male prisons, and where trans men attacked women^

My under that there was already considerable guidance around this, which usually works "in favour" of trans identifying people.

There is also the fact that some organisations are still discriminating against having trans employees despite anti-discrimination legislation

But gender reassignment (including before any transitioning takes place) is already a protected characteristic?

still have access to women's spaces and roles

Is it a human right to have access to women's spaces? Men don't have access to (some) women's spaces.

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RavingRoo · 09/12/2017 16:14

It’s a human right for trans women to have access to women’s space (same for trans men): men are not the same as trans women.

Also, I have noted the organisations that discriminate despite the law. If you are going to quote do it properly and not in bits to validate your own assumptions.

Fact is trans people are being discriminated, as are non-white people, and being a black trans person makes you discriminated against on 2 counts!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/12/2017 16:19

It’s a human right for trans women to have access to women’s space (same for trans men): men are not the same as trans women.

Why? "Transwomen" are not women - they are transwomen with everything that entails - surely if the y don't want to be in men's spaces they should create their own spaces? Men are the same as transwomen in terms of sex - which is the only characteristic that women's spaces (generally) discriminate on.

Fact is trans people are being discriminated, as are non-white people

I'm sure this is true, but it is currently against the law, I'm not sure how this can be further strengthened. As far as I can see, in law, trans identifying people have the same rights as everyone else?

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pisacake · 09/12/2017 16:22

"It’s a human right for trans women to have access to women’s space (same for trans men): men are not the same as trans women"

Don't be bloody silly.

DublinBlowin · 09/12/2017 16:23

ravingroo

there have been instances where trans women were raped in male prisons, and where trans men attacked women

Can you link to anything supporting those assertions? Has this happened in the UK? I have never heard either although I know there are a number of examples of trans identified males having sex with women in women’s prisons.

CosmicCanary · 09/12/2017 16:29

men are not the same as trans women.

Erm yes they are.
Transwomen are men hence the transwomen bit. All transwomen are born male therefore they are men.

Nyx1 · 09/12/2017 16:29

Raving, can I ask your definition of transwoman? Are you going with self ID - so no medical treatments?

pisacake · 09/12/2017 16:30

Men have a human right to be with other members of their sex.

All human beings can get married regardless of sex.

HermioneWeasley · 09/12/2017 16:31

Raving. It is entirely appropriate that the spouses of transitioning individuals have the choice to stay in the marriage or not after the individual has legally changed their sex. The GRC can’t go through until thr marriage is ended, and rightly so. It’s an issue which mainly effects women and thy shouldn’t have to go through a lengthy and expensive process when the other party commits a fundamental breach of contract

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/12/2017 16:34

Sorry just to go back to this quote:

It’s a human right for trans women to have access to women’s space

Is it is also a human right for women to access trans identifying males' spaces? My (very broad) understanding was that there was a general right to assemble in exclusive groups with common issues. It seems a bit distasteful for me to insist on access to (eg) a breast cancer survivors group when I have not had breast cancer because excluding me would be discrimatory.

Surely discrimination in some areas is fine eg Rachel Dolzal excluded from being a black person, or me discriminating against women when it comes to sex?

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Hollyhobgoblin · 09/12/2017 16:35

It's a man thing

SparklyUnicornTractors · 09/12/2017 17:10

It’s a human right for trans women to have access to women’s space (same for trans men): men are not the same as trans women.

Huh? So trans women are women, but trans men are not men? Or have I misunderstood that sentence?

I disagree it's a human right to have access to women's spaces. I agree it's a human right to NOT have to be in any space at which you are at risk of abuse and discrimination and male violence, and gladly support creation of trans specific spaces. It's not a human right to commandeer provisions of other vulnerable groups.

BelligerentGardenPixies · 09/12/2017 17:19

It is a human right to insist that trans identified individuals are relatively safe in prison. It doesn't follow suit, however, that it is their human right to move to an opposite sex estate on account of them not being of that sex.

There should be suitable provision made for them within the establishment that is correct for their sex.

SparklyUnicornTractors · 09/12/2017 17:20

So in fact: Article 2 (right to equality) in terms of right to EQUAL protected provision in situations of vulnerability, in the same way women have. (largely by pursuing this equality over decades). And Article 3: right to safety. Yes, absolutely, people who identify as trans need their own provisions to ensure these things.

However Article 12: freedom from interference (which includes the right to arbitrary interference with privacy), Article 18, freedom of belief, (freedom of thought, conscience and religion), Article 19, freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media, and Article 20, the right to peaceful assembly and association, are the human rights currently under threat for biological women and girls.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/12/2017 17:28

So perhaps the oft quoted phrase, "trans rights are human rights" would be more accurately reversed to "human rights are trans rights" ?

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Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 09/12/2017 17:50

I see it a bit like this.

Mark grows up in an affluent family, living in a big house. Mark and his family have a disagreement and it becomes difficult for Mark to live there any more. One solution is for the whole family to discuss things openly and come to some kind of compromise that everyone can live with. Neither Mark nor his family will put in the work to achieve this, so Mark moves out. He now needs somewhere else to live.

He could work hard and earn the money to pay for a place of his own where he can live the way he wants, with other like-minded people. Other people in his position have done that in the past.

But there's an easier solution. His neighbour Sarah has a house. A bit small, and Mark is vaguely aware that Sarah has some difficulties, the details of which elude him. Probably a lot of fuss about nothing, and ultimately Sarah's fault for not being from Mark's side of the tracks. Mark's view is that Sarah is morally obliged to take him in. He's had a hard time and Sarah seems a very polite and helpful person. She won't make the fuss that his family have been making. She will just budge up and let him share her hard-won space. She will probably be pleased to be of use.

So without even bothering to ask Sarah, Mark moves in and takes over the space. And soon it's Mark's space, not Sarah's, and everybody is saying how marvellously brave Mark has been to cope with this adversity. If Sarah tries to raise any objection, she gets shouted down. Why can't she see how lucky she is to have this fabulous new person in her house! He really makes a much better job of being there than she ever did. He must be so upset by her behaviour. If he kills himself, it will all be at Sarah's door!

All of which suits Mark's family just fine. They carry on exactly as they always did. Nobody blames them, nobody expects them to change anything they do. They can join in the abuse of Sarah too! Win win win.

Ereshkigal · 09/12/2017 17:51

Fantastic analogy!

StigOfThePlump · 09/12/2017 18:30

I think they have the right to a little respect at least. There's a thread on here right now talking about "men in dresses stomping around". Confused

Glowerglass · 09/12/2017 18:36

Well stomping is not very feminine.

nauticant · 09/12/2017 18:39

I like the tale of Mark and Sarah but think there's a continuation:

After a while though, Mark feels that Sarah is cramping his style. It's just annoying her being around. Mark starts making Sarah uncomfortable so maybe she'll move on and find somewhere else to live. If she does this, and Mark thinks that Sarah's new place is actually rather nice, he'll move back in with Sarah. Sarah won't be able to move back into her original house though because by that point it'll be full of Mark's mates.