Are 'sex' and 'gender' interchangable / rude words in other languages?

[raisinsarenottheonlyfruit]

Long before trans ideology was a "thing", people in the UK started using the word 'gender' when they mean 'sex'.
e.g."gender reveal baby parties" when really they mean "sex".

Obviously a significant reason for this is that people see the word "sex" as rude and "gender" as a polite alternative.

Is it the same or different in other languages?

Do you know the words for 'sex' and 'gender' in any other languages? What are they? Are either of them considered rude? Do people say 'gender' when they really mean sex in that language? Or vice versa?

On another thread, we were wondering if there's any link between people using these words interchangably and how quickly the TRA idea that gender=sex is accepted in countries.

If we get a few examples we could have a look at Google Trends and see if we can see any diffence between countries for the rise of terms related to TRA ideology, which could be really interesting.

In German I am only aware of the word Geschlecht used for both, but probably more meaning sex. One might add soziales Geschlecht when differentiating.

Well, remember, the use of the word 'gender' to mean something separate from grammatical or biological gender is relatively recent because, historically, the word 'gender' did just mean 'sex' when not applied to grammar.

My large Collins Dictionary from 1991 (so just over 26 years ago) gives the following meanings of 'gender':

1. a set of two or more grammatical categories into which the nouns of a certain language are divided, sometimes but not necessarily corresponding to the sex of the referent when animate
2. any of the categories, such as masculine, feminine, neuter or common within such a set
3. (informal) the state of being male, female or neuter
4. (informal) all the members of one sex: the female gender.

Not a squeak about identity or social constructs or any of the things that in the intervening 26 years gender appears to have come to mean.

So to old people like me who grew up with one meaning of the word, it's pretty strange to be told constantly by teenagers that 'gender' and 'sex' are two different things. They may be now, but they weren't for most of my life.

In Indonesian there is 'jenis kelamin', where 'jenis' means type. Kelamin is used in other contexts, e.g., 'penyakit kelamin' is 'veneral disease' (penyakit = sickness or disease), 'alat kelamin' (alat means tool or part) is 'genitals'.

There is no word for gender, because gender is a made up modern concept, so they have adopted 'gender' directly from English, e.g., 'kesetaraan gender' means 'gender equality'.

French has distinct gender nouns with the prefix la and le.

Gender was always distinct from biological sex.

And I do agree that the mention of the word sex regarding identifying biological class brings out a certain prissy attitude, but especially with men. They get all in a fluster with it. Women are much more stoical and pragmatic in the biology.

When did the first Gender Studies course replace Women's Studies?

Ontopofthesunset that's interesting! I'm surprised it's so recently been the seen as the same word.

But - feminists were talking about gender and sex being different much earlier that, weren't we/they?

Thinking aloud... there was utopian 70s feminist fiction like Women On The Edge of Time by Marge Piercy for example, where everyone was called "per" rather than him or her and didn't have male / female genders, I can't remember the exact language used though, but surely that's based on an idea that sex and gender are different?

(Frustrating! An interview with the author here but no mention of gender / sex!)

When did sex and gender start meaning differen things?

Spanish seems to mix up him and her when translated into English - I spend time with Spanish-speaking people and their English both spoken and written often used Him for women. Maybe it's dominant in the language?
.

I always think of and her mother struggling to say the word "sex" when I read "gender" on a form when it should really say "sex"

30 years ago I believed sex was a verb and gender a noun. I think I was wrong.

pisacake interesting! So in Indonesian, the word for sex literally means ""type of genitals"? If so, there's no room for ambiguity there then is there?

I'm curious, has there been a similar rise in trains rights activits and the associated ideology in Indonesia?

Elendon:

And I do agree that the mention of the word sex regarding identifying biological class brings out a certain prissy attitude, but especially with men. They get all in a fluster with it. Women are much more stoical and pragmatic in the biology.

Totally agree with that in English speaking places!

Did you mean the same is true in France? Is the word for sex (as in XX or XY) considered impolite in French? Does it mean the same as sex (as in intercourse)?

French is derived from Latin and (whisper it) English as we know it is derived from Latin and French.

Intercourse means exchange (interestingly, in monetary terms).

There are a few phrases that hang on from the Anglo Saxon (though not as many swear words as we would like to think there are) and of course English has been influenced in the North by the Vikings.

I blame Adrian Mole - I wonder what the impact of thousands of teenagers sniggering at the "sex? Yes please" on a form,and then copying it in real life had...

Hungarian has no gender pronouns

I know a Hungarian elderly man who had been in the Uk for 60 years and still can’t get used to gendered pronouns. Everyone is a “he” to him.

I just googled and found an interesting article about other languages that don’t have gender pronouns

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages

Thanks raisins.

The bbc keep referring to Megan M’s work on “gender equality.” Im assuming they mean sex equality but it’s really not clear.

raisins, in Indonesia they have 'bencong', which is derived from 'banci' which colloquially means 'sissy' or 'effeminate' but originally just meant 'hermaphrodite'/ambiguous genitals. They also have 'waria' which is the word 'wanita' ('woman') combined with pria ('man').

So a transsexual there is basically referred to as 'ladyboy'.

In Thailand the word is 'kathoey', which apparently also derives from hermaphrodite/intersex.

The difference there is that they are a third sex, or possibly a subset of men. There is no ideology of transitioning from a man to a woman. I think this comes from law, e.g., the GRA 2004 which asserts that a transperson acquires their new sex in all respects.

The kathoey of Thailand often 'pass' very well as women, but the difference is that male sex tourists are warned that they are likely to be robbed etc. metro.co.uk/2017/09/09/thai-hotel-criticised-for-warning-guests-about-light-fingered-ladyboys-6914475/
www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/1146507/violent-gang-of-ladyboys-mugging-tourists-warn-thai-police-after-german-man-was-attacked-in-girlie-resort-town/

No warning is necessary for male sex tourists with female prostitutes, where female prostitutes are the one at risk.

In Indonesia, the idea of a man 'acquiring' female gender when he becomes a ladyboy would be seen as ridiculous.

Women are married at 20 with kids, don't go out on their own from the age of puberty due to risk of rape and murder www.reuters.com/article/us-indonesia-crime/leader-of-indonesia-gang-which-raped-murdered-girl-sentenced-to-death-idUSKCN11Z14D

Whereas the waria/bencong are essentially male in their behaviour, they merely happen to look female.

So you have:

man
woman
ladyboy (in reality homosexual man)

Androgynous women would be referred to as 'lesbi', there is no concept of female-to-male. You do also get 'homo' for men, distinct from 'ladyboy', but out gay males mostly become 'ladyboy'.

I don't think that traditional cultures have the issues of the UK because gender (or rather sex) roles are far stronger there. E.g., there are still virginity tests for women in Indonesia joining army/police www.hrw.org/news/2017/11/22/indonesia-no-end-abusive-virginity-tests

So the idea of transgender rights probably predicated on women having rights to start with.

another way I think to look at it is that TRA is MRA.

Every time you hear about trans rights, it's men in women's sport, men in women's changing rooms, men in women's jobs, etc.

TRA = MRA

And if women have no rights then MRA/TRA don't operate

@MrGHardy really interesting to see there's only one word used in Germany.

What's the trans scene like there? Has there been a rise in Trans Rights Ideology like we're seeing here and in America?

does gen-der come from gen-itals?

as in gen-us?

gender is from Latin genus for 'type', genitals is from the Latin verb gignere 'to beget'

pisacake thank you, that's real food for thought.

So the idea of transgender rights probably predicated on women having rights to start with.

Such a good point.