Food hierarchy

[Ava6]

Just when I thought I had learnt it all about the true nature of our males, here comes something that truly makes me lose it:

I had always assumed that the sky high mortality of mothers& babies in times past was due to lack of medicine, sanitation + too many kids for mums to look after them properly. Turns out that an even bigger factor was malnutrition due 2 men & boys hogging the food for themselves, leaving pregnant & breastfeeding women + growing girls 2 feed on their leftovers. Fetuses became too weak on such low nutrition, which would explain the staggering no. of stillbirths. This was probably the reason girls started growing so rapidly after WW II in the developed world: for the 1st time in history there was enough food to feed the females of the family sufficiently after the males took their fill.

For some reason this gutpunches me even more than all the other misogynistic evil men have perpetrated. I mean - can you really socialise someone to be this psychopathically selfish through conditioning alone??? (in terms of the male nature vs nature debate)

I want to smack that Evelyn Waugh bloke now. Squish a banana right in his face. Assuming he is now dead though so probably wouldn’t be much use, but that’s so entitled and nasty.

Mustang it was the same in my family, admittedly the men did work hard but so did the women, but it was a matter of pride to serve the menz all the best bits and biggest portions and then the mums would pick at their small plates or say they had eaten already.

Oh to offer a different perspective when I have spent Eid with Muslim friends families the women and children always eat first and the men get what’s left. Even in the mosques I have been in South London the women are served their meal at Ramadan first as a matter of pride and chivalry because they have small children and breast feeding or pregnant mums.

I don’t know what it’s like all over the Muslim world but this is what happens in my community.

I've not experienced Eid but I've done the breaking of the Ramadan fast in Muslim countries. In places that aren't too devout, the food is already plated and ready for the sunset signal, which is a gun blast broadcast on TV and radio. The portions are often equal, or served family-style from big pots in the centre of the table so you can help yourself.

A Muslim work colleague has a domineering father who demands more food than anyone else, despite not working and generally being a nuisance. There is a cultural element to this, but it sounds like a very dysfunctional family too.

Yes the fast breaking snacks in Ramadan have to be served pronto as quickly as possible so people can break fast then pray. But the main meal that’s served after prayers or the Eid main meal I have found gets served to the women first usually, or at exactly the same time. But I mean I can still imagine that in a lot of places and lots of Muslim families they do the penis portions thing too.

This obviously isn't from the West, but I've just been reading about this subject in a great book called "Mother Nature" and saw this picture of twins in Islamabad. You can guess which one is the girl.

That’s horrific

I know. I knew it happened but that picture shocked me.

I've certainly read about men eating first and women and children getting the scraps in modern or fairly modern Afghanistan.

Nothing surprises me about women’s treatment in Afghanistan anymore.

I suppose if you are dependant on a man for every penny that comes in, then you have to make sure he has the energy for a days work or everyone starves.

My mum (1940s Ireland) was second youngest of nine. She would have to serve up and wait until her older brothers had finished their food and had a cup of tea before she could sit and eat hers because there was literally nowhere else to sit. If they wanted more then she had less.

There's a lot of discussion of this in several easily available social history books for those demanding sources. The women in history series is good as are the various Life in a village.

Michael Wood also discusses it in his documentary: Christina; a medieval life.

It still happens today in countries with rigidly enforced patriarchal structures. It's quite shocking when you witness it for yourself.

How could the mother do that to her wee girl. I couldn’t look at my thriving son whilst my wee girl is clearly slowly dying .

Yes to the having a tiny bird like diet being some type of badge of honour for women and being questioned as to how possibly I could have an appetite that happened in my family too. It’s no where near as extreme as that picture but there was definite points in my youth that I starved over my male family members getting fed. It’s just so weird to think about.

My grandma, born in 1913 always did this. Dad and Grandad first, with the biggest of everything, then the children, then my mum and her.

It was always her habit to cut food into however many people there were plus one. Then the last piece would either be divided between the two men or one of them would have it. It was really galling as an adult (& thus on ladies portions) to provide a lovely Xmas pud and for Grandad to get such a big piece he struggled to eat it while mum and I just got a sliver.

I'm sure it dates back to men doing heavy manual work and needing the calories.

Ok. I have to admit to something. When I'm feeding a man which isn't often these days I do still pile their plate up compared to the rest of the plates and take a sense of satisfaction if they clear their plate and obviously enjoy it.

I mean I like it if anyone enjoys my cooking because I'm not the best, and I always let my dd eat what she wanted though at times she has been slightly overweight but not fat (like me). I trust my dd opinions on my food so if I cook something new will ask her what it needed more or less of, but I still have this ingrained in me that feeding the alpha male is good and virtuous, much like having a clean house.

If I'm feeding my dd father if he comes to see his children I run around a lot trying to make him happy, whereas with my female friends I would expect them to help themselves.

Also up until very recently my best friends have noticed I speak in a higher pitch to men and I'm much more flattering, to the point I sound doubtful of my own opinions even if I know I'm much more intelligent or just better informed on the subject than they are. I'm working on this, and I don't think the men I know well like it. A close friend has started reacting to me as if I'm being very confrontational when I don't do this. When I slip back into it he is so happy, like mummy put a big gold star on his forehead for being a good clever boy. Maybe it's because I come across as maternal I don't know.

Ok confessions done. Someone please chip in and tell me they are or have been just as bad as me.

Titiana, I think there's a difference between acknowledging that men on average require more calories than women (a biological fact, due to different body mass and body composition), and situations where the woman and her children are being kept short of enough calories for their needs while the man eats all he wants, which I think is mostly what's being discussed here.

My ex was 6'2", I'm 5'3" - I'd have ended up looking like the side of a house if I'd eaten the same size portions as him. That's just being sensible. My mum on the other hand went through her childhood being denied food because it was being given to her father. That's abusive and misogynistic.

You are right pricklyball maybe I'm thinking about this too much. I'm just noticing a change in myself since really looking into feminism from last year. But yes obviously a big guy will need more food and it's probably just human nature to enjoy feeding people.

I half-remenber a passage in a Barbara Pym novel where two women are planning to invite people for tea, and discussing what to serve. When told that there will be men in the group, one of them says something like, "Ah well, we must have meat then." So I wondered if that book was online so I could find that passage, and I didn't find it, but there is this academic thesis:

'A man needs meat' : food and gender in the fiction of Barbara Pym
Shields, C. M. University of Edinburgh, 2004
ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?uin=uk.bl.ethos.661861

The abstract makes it seem a bit dry:
This thesis examines Barbara Pym’s treatment of a critically-documented theme, food, as it intersects with gender within her oeuvre. By mapping the subjective quality that her fiction achieves through the ironic exposition of cultural myths relating to food and their gender implications, it offers an alternative critical perspective on Pym, formulated in opposition to the traditionalist hegemony that seeks to ‘protect’ her from feminists. ...

Protection from feminists, that's what we all need. Anyone know C. M. Shields, who was at Edinburgh in 2004?

I always have to read these scholarly posts twice or three times to make sense of them, sorry not your fault I'm just a bit daft.

So Pym has been criticised for writing women in her work giving men more food and this guy I imagine decided to write a whole thesis defending her? Very interesting.

I think the OP has really raised an important point the more I'm reading here. So interesting.

I wouldn't assume that C. M. Shields could be "this guy"; I think it's likely that she's female. And it's very unclear what (s)he is saying about response to Pym's work, whether it's feminists who have criticised Pym or who have defended her. I'd say Barbara Pym took a gently ironic view of society in the 1950s, not openly critical but making it clear that she understood people weren't always treated fairly. But it's been a fair while since I read any of her stuff, so maybe I've got that wrong! I believe the title of the thesis refers to the incident I was thinking of, though.

Thanks!

The Pym book is Some Tame Gazelle. The Bede sisters have invited the vicar (or possibly curate, can't remember which) round, so there is an element of social climbing and/or flirting going on. When the sewing woman comes, they have cauliflower cheese.

Blimey somebody always knows on Mumsnet don't they?

I was just thinking that Titanias! Amazing.

This was still a thing at my paternal grandparents in the 1980s - rural, very conservative WC family with 6 kids, my father being the youngest. They could have afforded enough good food for everyone in theory but were very stingy frugal.

They used to buy cooked ham slices according to the headcount: two slices for the men and one for the women.

My father, to his eternal shame, went along with his daughters not being fed as much as their male cousins at his parents' house.