Are/should male norms be the benchmark for female 'equality'? Should 'femininity' be prized too?

[ChesterBelloc]

Inspired by an interesting comment on another thread:

"What I find interesting though is that in all the (justified) talk about equality the standard is set by a male, testosterony , capitalist set up. For a woman to be successful she must do what men have traditionally done. That’s great. But why does no one tell young men that they should aspire to do the roles that women have traditionally filled? Because caring is not valued as highly as producing. And that is a bit of a problem in my opinion."

Two contentions there:

1. female success is now measured against traditionally male benchmarks (financial independence, professional success - though I would also add the 'equality' of her personal relationships)

2. caring roles (traditionally associated more with women) are not valued as highly as 'producing' roles

I absolutely believe that every human life is of the same intrinsic value, and absolutely do not believe that men are 'better', or that what were commonly considered 'masculine' traits are more important/valuable than 'feminine' traits. They're not a binary, or a hierarchy: they're just different.

However, I do believe that the work that women have traditionally done (keeping house, raising children, caring for elderly family members etc) has been steadily de-valued, and is now considered 'drudge work' that can/should be done by (mostly) minimum-wage workers, freeing up women for the far more important, worthy task of competing with men for success in the capitalist labour market ignoring the fact that those who work in the 'caring' professions are overwhelmingly women, looking after other people's children/parents rather than their own. Why is caring work only considered a worthwhile use of one's time if it has a wage attached?

This could turn into an essay, so I'll stop there, and simply ask if you think that men and women should aim for identical life outcomes (clearly impossible in the face of the biological need for future generations), or if there is any mileage in the idea that the sexes are different, and that the more 'female-associated' traits should be considered just as much of a strength as the more 'male-associated'? For example, is female biology (including menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding) a hindrance that needs ever-more sophisticated work-arounds, or something we should prize as a society (for example, making considerable adjustments to accommodate it in the labour market)?**

I'm expecting lots of disagreement with most of the above, but I'd appreciate a civil discussion!

In China they worked in the fields with bound feet when they failed to marry up

In China too, women work or did work as builders. It was striking, when I was there in the early 1990s, to see women labourers working as road builders.

Everyone hates kibbutzim in the west because of anti Israeli feeling, but when I worked and lived on one, no work was segregated on sex grounds. Woman work was collectivised and the kitchen workers produced the great food, the children's house did the child care. Kids were loved, strong resilient, cheeky and very socialised, being brought up collectively. Kids were loved, strong resilient, cheeky and very socialised, being brought up collectively. Women followed their skill sets, men were forced to challenge genders norms. Privatisation and the unfashionability of socialism as well as international condemnation of Israel has now all but destroyed kibbutzim.

More close to home, the Greenham protest was an example of lived feminism. Men worked as facilitators to enable wives and mothers to forego 'traditional' ( don't accept this term! ) work to do political work.

Miners' wives had a different but matriarchal structure during the Miners' Strike.

A million inadequacies in these set ups, but it's a world away from the Stepford/ Handmaid's tale dystopia we are seeing in the US and britain.
Feminism(and civil race rights, for another thread) is the most frightening thing to have happened to caucasian men in the last 100 years. This is a take down.

Talk of 'traditional roles' is bizarre when you have Chaucer in the 1400s writing of the Wife of Bath who's rich, self employed and sexually liberated. Although our story has been written out of history, we have an ancestry of independence, collective actions and self reliance. Particularly if you look at international women's liberation movements from the 1880s onwards, from Russia, through to US to here.

Patriarchy is spreading a lot of nonsense to make us question our egality. This is a systematic take down of the equality we've sought.
Dworkin talked of the fact of our enforced isolation leading to our oppression. Being trapped as financially dependent carers suits patriarchy.

Rights are not won, they have to be defended.

woman11017 - great post. It is up to us as a society to reclaim femininity and define it as our own. Women have great power. I too have seen first hand the power of the hand that feeds and cares. Without women, the whole system would collapse. In the Wild West, it is said, women reclaimed the prairies from the young, violent men - they cleaned up the drinking holes and cleared out prostitution to create communities safe for raising children. Because women are the child bearers, and thus take the physical risk and cost of bringing babies into the world, they have a greater interest in settled, safe communities.

The last 100 years of life on Earth has been an exception, yet we can't imagine anything different. We need some new ideas and above all education and solidarity between women.

woman11017

Yes. Nodding along to everything you have written. And may I add its getting worse

Women’s rights are secondary to just about every other group, including things like religions that do not need and should not have rights for an ideology. Note I do not mean the individual holding that religion has no rights, they do and they should be free from discrimination because of it. But an ideology itself should NOT be protected from criticism. And yet women’s rights are being eroded on all fronts. Women in Vienna told to cover up to not ‘arouse’ men because the poor darlings do t know any better. NO ffs you conform to the social norms and laws of the country you’re in. Women’s rights eroded by the trans lobby. Women’s rights

Sigh pressed send too soon.. eroded by the election of a man who actively glorifies sexual harassment as the potus.

It’s staggering, and yes it is a takedown. And we need to resist it

Cheers

We need some new ideas and above all education and solidarity between women.

I think we have a lot to learn from sisters in Africa right now.
My sense is that it is particularly 'anglo saxon' take down at the moment, see trumpbrexitputin.

Whereas, in countries like Liberia, Ghana and Sierra Leone, women are taking on male power and winning, and of course Scandinavian and to some extent the other EU27 countries.

I think this is peculiar alliance of the extreme right needs a this sort of psychotic patriarchy to survive.
(Especially what with caucasian sperm counts going down and all.
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/jul/25/sperm-counts-among-western-men-have-halved-in-last-40-years-study)

< checks how much it would be to get to west Africa on fact finding jolly for mums net >

Doesn't help with the housework though. Or is that my housework.?

"A million inadequacies in these set ups, but it's a world away from the Stepford/ Handmaid's tale dystopia we are seeing in the US and

oh please it's really not that bad, this take down of women nonsense. We have a relatively privilidged lifestyle in Britain compared across the globe.

Yes because what we all really need is to be "liberated" of our children and strive for communal child rearing setting. Then we can focus on the important things in life- going to work. I'm sick of people making out children are a burden.

Socialism is always a bad idea, it fails everywhere it's implemented.

I think most of you are living in an alternative universe.

We have socialist aspects to our current society, and many women are paid for caring work through tax credits and/or carers’ allowance. Feminists fought for these kind of payments, and will continue to do so.

Tax credits have helped poorer women enormously.

Social democracy works pretty darn well in Sweden, Iceland and the scandiwegian countries...

Missy, there are massive assaults on women’s reproductive rights in the USA. Abortion availability is zero in many counties, leaving women with no options. Women’s bodily autonomy has been overruled in Texas last year in order for a brain dead car crash victim to act as an incubator for an unborn baby (not for a day or two at the end of pregnancy, but from early trimester two, against medical advice AND against the wishes of her family.) if that’s not a tiny bit handmaidenly then I do t know what is.

I’m ok with capitalism, as long as it’s subjected to stringent checks and balances. A more social democratic capitalism, rather than unchecked free market flavour.
In terms of quality of life for the majority the social democratic model of the nordics / Scandinavian countries consistently ranks at the top of QOL measures (aside from our fucking awful weather.)

"While it is true that the Scandinavian countries provide things like a generous social safety net and universal healthcare, an extensive welfare state is not the same thing as socialism" FEE

No if you want to see full on socialism check out Venezuela.

As for abortion, that's a divisive issue. I still don't see this "take down" of women.

Social democracy, not socialism. I’m not advocating socialism

Missy - socialism is not the only alternative to the capitalist/consumerist world we live in. So much of the ill we see in the world, not just women's rights, is because of this destructive Atlantacist economic/societal model.

That's where I come into conflict with much of popular feminism. Women ARE the strength in our communities but have been brainwashed into thinking otherwise. So we try to even things out by getting mums to throw their charges into childcare and don the power suit, all the while complaining OH won't pull his weight. Women's lot has changed in some ways yet in others it hasn't. Despite the wealth, I don't think Western women are hugely happier than 50 years ago. They are paid more, better educated and have many more legal rights and protections, thank fuck. BUT they work disproportionately more (in the home plus outside), shoulder more mental load than ever before, and as divorce has liberated many women from crap men, it has also meant many crap fathers getting away with not paying for their offspring. Then the rise of pornography has set women back. Plus I believe (I'd like to know if others think likewise) that those communities of SAHM backalong have been replaced with this nasty individualism of modern society. Sisterhood has disappeared...at least in RL - of course MN and the internet in general have brought us together in other ways, but too rarely physically.