Are/should male norms be the benchmark for female 'equality'? Should 'femininity' be prized too?

[ChesterBelloc]

Inspired by an interesting comment on another thread:

"What I find interesting though is that in all the (justified) talk about equality the standard is set by a male, testosterony , capitalist set up. For a woman to be successful she must do what men have traditionally done. That’s great. But why does no one tell young men that they should aspire to do the roles that women have traditionally filled? Because caring is not valued as highly as producing. And that is a bit of a problem in my opinion."

Two contentions there:

1. female success is now measured against traditionally male benchmarks (financial independence, professional success - though I would also add the 'equality' of her personal relationships)

2. caring roles (traditionally associated more with women) are not valued as highly as 'producing' roles

I absolutely believe that every human life is of the same intrinsic value, and absolutely do not believe that men are 'better', or that what were commonly considered 'masculine' traits are more important/valuable than 'feminine' traits. They're not a binary, or a hierarchy: they're just different.

However, I do believe that the work that women have traditionally done (keeping house, raising children, caring for elderly family members etc) has been steadily de-valued, and is now considered 'drudge work' that can/should be done by (mostly) minimum-wage workers, freeing up women for the far more important, worthy task of competing with men for success in the capitalist labour market ignoring the fact that those who work in the 'caring' professions are overwhelmingly women, looking after other people's children/parents rather than their own. Why is caring work only considered a worthwhile use of one's time if it has a wage attached?

This could turn into an essay, so I'll stop there, and simply ask if you think that men and women should aim for identical life outcomes (clearly impossible in the face of the biological need for future generations), or if there is any mileage in the idea that the sexes are different, and that the more 'female-associated' traits should be considered just as much of a strength as the more 'male-associated'? For example, is female biology (including menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding) a hindrance that needs ever-more sophisticated work-arounds, or something we should prize as a society (for example, making considerable adjustments to accommodate it in the labour market)?**

I'm expecting lots of disagreement with most of the above, but I'd appreciate a civil discussion!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a1073469-Is-it-non-feminist-to-wear-make-up

Here's one about makeup.... just to prove I'm not making stuff up.

Doris -

Not saying it's the only reason, but I
Imagine it would have some effect. If there are two wages to contribute to a mortgage, people can afford to offer more, house prices will go up as a result. As I said it's not women's fault, it shouldn't have been allowed to spiral the way it did. Whether you agree or not, it's not an illogical assumption and no reason to get defensive with the OP

missymoo have you read the threads you linked to? It is far more nuanced than you stated. Indeed, in one it is a father forbidding make-up! In all cases it appears feminists have defended women's rights to look how they wish, whilst recognising the societal pressures behind so called 'fee choice'. Feminist are very pro-women - it is our USP

No, it really really doesn’t. House prices are affected by the availability of credit (expanded massively since the 70s), increase in demand (population change including longer life expectancy, immigration and the rise in single person households; increase in residential property investment etc. etc.) and supply which has not kept up.

I don’t know why you are so desperate to link house prices and women’s participation in the workforce.

doris- I'm not desperate, as I said I don't blame women at all, i blame the housing industry, banks and goverment for letting house prices go crazy. I'm not by any means an expert, I was defending op by saying it wasn't an unreasonable assumption to link two wage households to house prices- she wasn't attacking women.

Luminaries- it's what I found in a very quick search, I just mean that some women do like to express themselves in a "feminine way".

it wasn't an unreasonable assumption to link two wage households to house prices

Depends on how you define unreasonable. It is factually incorrect.

As I said, I don't know I'm not an expert, it seems logical -no harm was intended.

Missymoo I read back over the thread on restrictive clothing you linked to and could see no posts saying anything even close to it's unfeminst to wear women's clothing. Some discussion about dress codes, issues with footwear like impractical choices for children and heels for women and whether women feel pressured or not to wear uncomfortable clothes. I think you are reading what you want to read and not what people have actually said.

Nooka- as I said quick search- here's another
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3028005-Giving-up-makeup

Doris- my point wasn't related to what caused the house price rise, more that we should be feeling the benefit of two wage income in division of labour and caring. We're not though, and as I said in a previous post I don't have the answers.

I just think why are things seen as "feminine" put under the spotlight for critique when lots of women find pleasure in embracing aspects of feminine identity. It's not a flaw.
Why are women shaving their legs a topic of discussion, anymore than men shaving their facial hair?

a women not shaving their legs is seen as less of a woman - repulsive even.

a man not shaving his facial hair is seen as a man with a beard.

Why are women shaving their legs a topic of discussion, anymore than men shaving their facial hair?

Because if men don't shave their face, they end up with a long beard like Dumbledore that makes a HUGE difference to their appearance, plus is inconvenient and gets food stuck in it.

If women don't shave their legs, nothing happens. You have a few hairs on your leg. There's no practical reason to shave. It was literally invented by razor companies in the 20th century (fact).

Luckily my BF doesn't mind me having yeti legs for 8 months of the year - I only shave in summer because I'm scared of judgy comments (usually from other girls).

Also, women are shamed into shaving their legs, whereas men are never shamed into shaving off any body hair. Even when they have really long gross sweaty armpit hair that clings to your shoulders when they hug you.

Yes I see, my point is though that men aren't discussing should we shave our beards, wear hair gel, go to gym to tone up, shave body hair etc... so why are women looking judging their own behaviours under a negative light.

Also women who have had cancer, and had a mastectomy or lost their hair, find it deeply upsetting. It impacts on their feminine identity-the way they perceive themselves as a woman. I think it can be under estimated the value of "feminine", it is part of our identity, not all social constructs.

"I don't like this assertion that there's no difference between the sexes. This attempt to make out we're all gender neutral, erasure of male and female- I find it insidious. It's dehumanising and an attack on a basic unit of identity."

I agree, Missy.

femininity isn't a 'unit' of my identity. Gender might be really important to some people, but it generally to me it feels like an imposition. I don't do lots of things that society says I should do (and should want to do) and I think it should stop.

Re the threads you have linked, they don't say what you claim them to say, so what's the point in linking to them?

The threads show women questioning things like make up, body hair etc, I've already made my point when I said men don't feel a need to analyse their own routines, things that are seen as feminine have to be assessed. Things associated with femininity are looked on with suspicion, as though preferences are pressured/forced.
As I said women who lose their hair, have masectomies feel grief because of the feeling of lost feminity, it does affect their self image and identity.
You may identify/ express yourself however you please no one has issue with that, but to suggest feminity is merely an imposition, I think is quite offensive to many women.
If all we strive for is to ditch feminine in favour of masculine traits and benchmarks we become neutered males.

Well no because rejecting imposed concepts of femininity does not make you any less female. Rejecting aspects of femininity does not meal you have to instead embrace masculine stereotypes either.

Yes most men do not worry about their beauty routines (lucky them) but girls and women are socialized to spend time and money changing themselves, with the message that if they don't there is something wrong with them. Feminism says there is nothing wrong with them, there is something wrong with society. Women should be as free to dress and adorn themselves as much or as little as they like without censure.

That censure doesn't come from feminists. You seem to be trying to claim that the feminist boards here are full of people saying that women should not wear make up, or heels or pretty clothes, that they shouldn't shave or have other beauty treatment. It's not a truthful claim and you can't back it up.

Nature and nurture are entwined because of neuroplasticity. Gender socialisation begins before birth so all this caring business could be softwired into girls 100% because very little in our brains is hardwired. Maybe there are some bonding chemicals resulting from carrying the babies in female bodies + breastfeeding, or perhaps just rationalization based on having put so much pain and risk into producing bubs- so better keep them alive not to waste it. But it's been hijacked by men and blown out of all proportion.

So I'm totally with femininity being a whole lot of crock constructed by patriarchy. Hormones do influence human behaviour somewhat but childcare has been dumped on women solely because men couldn't be arsed with it. W

The Stanford prison experiment showed that humans of both sexes get drunk on power shockingly fast. Men have been drunk on power for millennia while have been deprived, so this would also drive feminine behaviour seen as innate.

Missymoo, men don't debate their grooming norms because they made the rules and have the freedom from being decorative objects. I find pit and leg hair on Caucasian men to be far more unappealing than on women cause it's thicker but I don't have the institutional power to push them into shaving. I'm more attracted to men from ethnicities that naturally have sparse body hair because most dudes can't be stuffed to remove theirs (while guilting women into it).

To answer the OP's question, masculine patriarchal norms should absolutely NOT be the norm in the long run because they're sociopathic. We need to abolish socialised sex norms altogether. But in the meantime women + girls need to paid and acknowledged for the unpaid work they do and the physical reproductive labour their bodies put in.

I've already made my point when I said men don't feel a need to analyse their own routines, things that are seen as feminine have to be assessed

Missy - are you sure you know any men? Because in my experience they question loads - and have you seen how often some men go to the barber? Or the gym? Plenty of men care about their appearance, care about being masculine, worry if wearing the pink shirt is too feminine, whether they can still get away with an earring, etc.

In the spirit of 'quickly searched links' have a google for Piston heads 'should I have a beard' and you'll see there's a number of links talking about the merits, the social impact (bosses, interviews etc).

"Producing roles": women produce at least half of humanity's food and they always have. "Male breadwinner" is a patriarchal myth. Women have slaved away in the fields, food factories, farms, soup kitchens, on plantations, gathering, fishing and small scale horticulture n pre-agrarian tribes. In China they worked in the fields with bound feet when they failed to marry up.