Robert Webb on Graham Norton today. I DESPAIR!!!

[Fosterdog123]

Started off really well. He was there to flog his book (called something like how not to be a boy) and said that he encouraged men to be feminists and having 2 daughters really made him think about how wide-spread male dominance is, even down to the symbol on traffic lights being a little green MAN etc etc. Hurrah, thought I, at last, a man who gets it and is prepared to stick his neck out about this stuff. How naive was I though! Almost immediately, he went on to say that feminism was the 'right thing to do' cos it's good for men. For men???? Ffs. I know human beings are typically selfish and only really in it for themselves and therefore men are no different but eff off and leave feminism alone if you're just gonna use it to further the cause of MEN!!!! Or AIBU? To bastardise a supermarket phrase, does every little help?

I'm still finding my feet and developing my opinions

This is the only thing that counts. It doesn't matter if your post hasn't met with general approval. If you're thinking, you're doing fine.

I think that the more men say this the better, as perhaps more men will embrace feminist thinking. It is patriarchy that damages men and women, not feminism.

@AnyFucker is right, this forum is a brilliant learning resource.

I must say that having had two sons has made me much more of a feminist, but in a different way. I used to approach it from a 'women can do everything, fuck yeah' angle; now I look at all the ways in which society seems to want to emotionally stunt/pigeonhole/facilitate my sons and think 'oh fuck no'.

My sons are every bit as capable as I am, and just as eager to do basic household tasks for praise. They are able to follow rational lines of thought, and to spot idiocies (admittedly when these are pointed out rather than tacitly accepted by all adults present). I refuse to let them become the shit versions of themselves that society seems happy to accept. Hell no.

So from that perspective - I kind of see RW's point!

Welcome and stick around Foster. I agree with the others, thinking about issues and debating them is key to developing your ideas and understanding. Don't be afraid to say the 'wrong thing'; it's often part of the process of getting to the right answer.

MN Feminist board rocks!

Hear Hear La Contessa:

posted too soon

I refuse to let them become the shit versions of themselves that society seems happy to accept. Hell no.

This, every time, You have brilliantly articulated how i am raising my sons, too. I swear if i hear my mother or father say 'That's just men/ they don't think/are stupid/lack imagination.. I will scream.

Everyone starts somewhere op. I can see why you felt riled. I also think feminism helps men. And that's a good thing.

Think I will buy it for DS(23). His ideas about social justice tend to forget about women.

Thats the point op. One of the positive consequences of feminism is that its good for men too.

This is how I sell feminism to dubious men.

I point out yes this is about women getting abortion rights, equal pay, dealing with male violence and all those other issues including the gender stereotype bollocks and the patriarchy, getting women in to top jobs as MPs even a good lefty female PM! but the benefit to men is they have partners with the same earning power as them meaning the pressure is off them, they can be SAHD or work part time, they can do typically female roles without shame or the bullying from toxic masculinity, the male suicide rate will drop (theoretically if the above changes) mental health will improve.

YES all this benefits men but by eck love the benefits to us are huge in comparison.

I haven't read his book or seen him on GN but this is the same message as Blindboy I think. ie, seek out a relationship with an equal (male or female) and that will free a young uneducated man to be a loved father, to love his life, show his emotions, be supported and supportive in a team and reduce suicide rates in young men.

NO idea if this over laps at all with Robert Webb's message. But what blind boy says makes a lot of sense and it is men who need to change too! We can't just appeal for feminism to women !

I do agree thought that it is sad that the only way to get men to embrace feminism is to see that it frees them up a bit too. They don't care about all the indignities and injustices endured by women since the dawn of time. It is hard not despise a man who is finally won over by seeing the benefits to himself. So yes, it's complicated to process.

Jet " but the benefit to men is they have partners with the same earning power as them meaning the pressure is off them, they can be SAHD or work part time"

I'm not sure many men see that as a plus. I think they probably worry more about increased competition in the workplace and prefer to have financial power over their household. I haven't carried out research, just a thought

It took me a while to ‘get’ a lot of what’s written here, and now I do, I was raving about RW and his book. I’m still learning though!

The abridged version might still be on the R4 book of the week for a few months ago if you want to hear it. As others have said, patriarchy damages men also (especially young boys and young men) and his book really explains how feminism supports men as well as women very eloquently.

Oh sorry, repeating what GN said! How boring!!

Just ordered it for my DS for christmas as a result of this thread.

Well, it's true. People mainly take up causes that benefit them personally - about 90% of people only support a charity because a family member died of the disease.

That's why initially women took up feminism....

prefer to have financial power over their household.

I don't know any men that want this.

If anything, the men at my work want to be able to do less hours and say they'd become a SAHD if the got the opportunity to.

My 16 year old don has read it and listened to it. It's perfect for teenage boys.

And yes, we really need men to be outspoken about how the patriarchy is bad for men and women, and feminism benefits men and women.

He wrote this for Red a while back.

www.redonline.co.uk/red-women/robert-webb-marriage