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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

R4 Moral Maze 8pm tonight: Defining Gender

23 replies

Iris65 · 15/11/2017 07:37

From their website:
'The Church of England has issued its schools with advice on transphobic bullying, suggesting that boys should be free to dress up in tutus and tiaras, and girls allowed to wear tool-belts and superhero capes, in the spirit of exploring "who they might be", without fear of stigma. The traditional view of gender is in rapid retreat. Both the Westminster and Scottish governments are considering making it easier for someone to change their legal gender. The LGBT campaign group Stonewall has called the current UK system - in which individuals have to appear in front of a Gender Recognition Panel - "demeaning and broken". The first moral consideration must surely be the wellbeing of people whose transitions can often be accompanied by complex mental health problems and a painful battle against the judgements of their families and society. Next is how far society needs to change to accommodate those individuals. Some women, for example, are uncomfortable with trans-women accessing 'women only' spaces such as lavatories and changing rooms. Whose rights take precedence? There is no one type of trans person. Many are binary, identifying as either male or female, others are non-binary and might self-describe as agender, gender fluid, bi-gender, a demi-girl or a demi-boy. An increasing awareness of gender fluidity is, for many, the mark of an inclusive and enlightened society. For others, multiple complex gender labels serve only to reinforce the insecurities of children and teenagers, at a time when it is normal for them to feel confusion about all sorts of things, including their sexuality. Whichever way you view it, how can we - parents, teachers, society - best enable young people to discover and become who they really are, in a period of complex and rapid social change?'

OP posts:
badbadhusky · 15/11/2017 08:16

It will be interesting to see how this shakes down tonight.

chuntersalot · 15/11/2017 08:42

Anyone hear the trailer for this earlier today on R4?

Opened with words to the effect - sex has always been confused but until recently gender was straightforward Hmm

Will be listening later.

motmot · 15/11/2017 12:07

Yes I did shout at the trailer this morning... Usual conflation of sex and gender Angry

FloraFox · 15/11/2017 12:15

The speakers look quite interesting. According to twitter, Heather Brunsvell-Evans is speaking and she's just co-written a very interesting book on transing children.

Iris65 · 15/11/2017 16:20

I'm looking forward to it too. The debate format is good and Michael Buerck keeps order well so we are less likely to any TRA shouting and steamrolling other participants.

OP posts:
Stopmakingsense · 15/11/2017 16:54

In fact she is in the book I've just started a thread on "Born in the Wrong Body"

nauticant · 15/11/2017 20:06

Well, at least Melanie Phillips isn't on. First up, Mermaids propaganda.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 15/11/2017 20:19

I don't care to listen to it. I strongly suspect it would make me shouty....

How many times have sex and gender been used incorrectly so far?

LaContessaDiPlump · 15/11/2017 20:44

I liked the last witness - she described my viewpoint very well.

nauticant · 15/11/2017 20:44

No rigor.
We mustn't be mean.
There are unlikely to be any problems.

The deliberate blindness of the liberals in this area never ceases to amaze me.

SonicBoomBoom · 15/11/2017 20:49

Waiting for it to come on iplayer.

I think I will be getting shouty too, ItsAll.

DoopityDo · 15/11/2017 20:49

They waffled around the point terribly. The QUESTION is “what sex-based rights should be accorded to someone based on their self-declaration that they are now male/female/whatever?”

But no, we get “we should trust people to make their own decisions” about WHAT? About what to wear and what name to be called? Or about what sex facilities they use regardless or their genitalia?

The feminist lady tried, at least, but everyone else was obsessed with feelings over actual practical implications of feelings.

Sigh.

Terrylene · 15/11/2017 20:50

The intro makes it sound like a done deal, much like the R4 Today did.

How did it go?

DoopityDo · 15/11/2017 20:51

To clarify, someone’s choice of name and manner of dress bothers me not one whit, but their insistence that your declared gender trumps sex-based provision...that one I have problems with.

LaContessaDiPlump · 15/11/2017 20:54

The last words: "The world's gone mad, and we should at least be able to challenge it when we think people are not speaking the truth."

This made me laugh Grin

nauticant · 15/11/2017 21:05

They waffled around the point terribly. The QUESTION is “what sex-based rights should be accorded to someone based on their self-declaration that they are now male/female/whatever?”

This is where the programme completely failed DoopityDo. They didn't break out of "going through transition is so heroic, it's best not to examine any area that might question the integrity of trans people".

The analysis in the programme didn't go much beyond "so, trans people, nice or not nice?"

Oh, and Matthew Taylor. Hadn't quite noticed before but what a smug complacent cock.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/11/2017 10:11

Im finally listening just now. Did professor whittle really say that 20 years ago we couldn't identify sex with certainty?

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 17/11/2017 10:33

I'm listening now - Jane Fay is such an arse. Jane Fay makes no sense whatsoever, and everything Jane Fay says is ridiculous.

HouseholdWords · 17/11/2017 11:34

The glaringly OBVIOUS point about the "humiliation" of "begging" for medical validation of your gender dysphoria, is that women's bodies have always been policed and controlled by the State

Throughout history, and worldwide.

Women in Northern Ireland; women who refuse medical intervention in child gestation & birth; women who campaigned for the vote;

I could go on.

But these entitled men just don't get it. Which shows that they are not socialised as women, and don't understand de Beauvoir's statement (or Judith Butler's argument, for that matter).

but who understands Judith Butler?

PencilsInSpace · 18/11/2017 22:28

I've just got round to listening to this. It's on catch up if anybody's looking for it.

Jane Fae said lots of people Jane's age wish they had been able to transition as children. No Jane, lots of men wish that. Yet the children we are now seeing transition are overwhelmingly girls. Jane does at least turn up to these things and debate though, and is always polite. We need more of that.

The Stephen Whittle section was odd because there was this big discussion about Stephen staying out of women's spaces which as far as I'm aware is not a huge issue.

James Caspian was excellent.

Heather Brunskell Evans was very good but seemed to be saying she didn't believe there are any trans children at all which I disagree with and which I thought made her come across as a bit extreme. I think there are probably a very small number of children for whom transitioning is the best option, but I don't think we can know which children they are until they are quite grown up.

Claire Fox was excellent and raised most of the main issues in clear, plain language. There was a male panellist who seemed totally outraged that women anybody could have a problem with any of it and was even crosser at the end of the programme than the beginning. Can't remember what the other female panellist said, I think it was Anne McElvoy who I tend to tune out because I find her incredibly dull.

Overall I thought it was a good discussion and I can't imagine it being broadcast even a few months ago. Programmes like this are at last getting the message out to the mainstream about what's happening.

cromeyellow0 · 18/11/2017 23:10

Jane Fae said lots of people Jane's age wish they had been able to transition as children. No Jane, lots of men wish that

That line was very revealing, showing why they are so intent on transing children. Their fantasy is that chemotherapy ("puberty blockers") is a fairy godmother that magically transforms boys into girls. In fact, as we've seen with Jazz Jennings, it turns them into sexless eunuchs.

PencilsInSpace · 19/11/2017 09:53

This from the blurb - The LGBT campaign group Stonewall has called the current UK system - in which individuals have to appear in front of a Gender Recognition Panel - "demeaning and broken". - needs challenging wherever it pops up.

Individuals do NOT have to appear in front of the panel, almost all applications are decided on paper. Full govt. guidance for applicants here.

PlateSpinnin · 19/11/2017 11:49

I was banging my head against my wall after Anne McElroy (sp?) said that all James Caspian's evidence was discredited by the fact that he couldn't answer her on question on what are the correct reasons to transition. Heather Brunskell-Evans and James Caspian are experts in the sodding field, ffs. I could scream. Just because their answers are too complex for Anne McElroy and Matthew Taylor's not really relevant questions, they dismissed the lot.

I am so frustrated that the Moral Maze and Question Time really missed the mark, ignoring so many of the really important aspects of this debate;

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