Caitlin Moran article on "why not just tell men to stop?" people

[KnittingPearl]

Hope this photo comes through okay - it is of an article by Caitlin Moran in today's Times magazine. A really good (I think) piece on pulling up the ladder behind you/ why it isn't enough to just expect women to tell obnoxious (or worse) men to stop.

Obviously, the biggest problem in all this is the men involved, but I think she is making some good points about society as a whole.

I don't think it should be a basic life skill to have to fend off unwanted advances. I would quite happily tell a man who put his hand on my knee to fuck off. So what, that doesnt mean I have more value than my friend, who has some MH issues and who I think would probably struggle with this. I am not prepared to leave other women behind because I have the "skill" to say fuck off.

That's both interesting and depressing CaptainBrickbeard. Great that your school is addressing the problem. It's really difficult to know what to do about it, as a wider society. It doesn't help that a lot of people seem to think sexism is outdated/ there's no need for feminism anymore/ women have never had it so good when the reality is that we've gone backwards.

There are so many variables affecting how we react. Telling us to be sassy is ridiculously oversimplifying the problem.
It also depends how often it happens. I remember an ex freezing when he was touched against his will by a woman. It had never happened before so he didn't know what to do in response. A woman who deals with it every day might be better equipped to deal with it than a woman who rarely suffers harassment/ assault.

'Yeah, sure, victim blaming is a bad thing. Harassment is a bad thing. The onus is, of course, on the abusive to not be arseholes. But, I really do think that it's unhelpful to suggest that people should make no effort whatsoever to learn how to be assertive or set boundaries. We can't shout down as 'victim-blaming' any and all attempts to encourage people learn basic life skills. That's a huge disservice.'

Who's saying that people should make no effort whatsoever to learn to be assertive? You seem to be misunderstanding the point entirely. In a situation where A is behaving badly towards B, it makes no sense to look at B and say 'why don't you change your behaviour?' because B isn't actually doing anything wrong. That's the point of this discussion.

Of course people should be assertive, that helps a lot in life. But asking women why they don't stop harassment, when they aren't actually the ones doing the harassing is just plain wrong. I can change my behaviour yes, but I can't and shouldn't be expected to change the behaviour of other adults.

leCroissant

Can you clarify your intent? You've written that "of course, people should be assertive" but also that, if they're not assertive, it makes no sense to question whether they shouldn't try to be.

I don't feel I have misunderstood the point at all - much as it might seem to you that I have.

My point is that assertiveness has nothing to do with this issue.

The issue is that men are harassing women. Looking at that situation and saying that women should be more assertive is pointless. Men should stop harassing women. That's the only conclusion to come to with that situation.

Yes it's great for women to be assertive. That is an entirely separate thing. However, regardless how assertive women are or aren't men should never harass them, no matter what. So linking the two concepts makes no sense.

Is that clearer?

It's clearer that your view is a shoulda, woulda, coulda kind of thing, yes.

If you think how one reacts to these things has absolutely no bearing and warrants no discussion that's up to you. I disagree. Is that alright?

I don't understand what point you're making but I'm happy not to discuss it with you.