How do we help men be sympathetic to feminism? (#metoo backlash, that kind of thing)

[QuentinSummers]

First of all, I post here loads, very feminist, not interested in getting mansplained about how to coddle men.

Recently I've talked to a few very decent, feminist sympathetic men who are feeling very alienated by the current discourse about diversity and how different groups are disadvantaged. I've heard them say they don't want to listen any more, they aren't like that and they feel like they are being blamed. They are buying into the trial by media/witch hunt narrative of #metoo and feeling scared and guilty by association.

So far so familiar, what is bothering me is these are men who have previously been very sympathetic to the cause.

How do I frame a conversation with them so they can understand this isn't about them, it's about us? And that women talking about what happens to them shouldn't be threatening to men who dont do these things?

Or should I not even bother and let them figure it out for themselves? Am I running the risk here of doing emotional work for men?

Very interested in opinions, have fire retardant clothes on

My DH has had the opposite reaction to your friends: the more comes out the angrier he is with other men

Mine too.

He also gets bothered about things which don't bother me (for example he was appalled by the beach body ready adverts and I just ignore that sort of stuff).

The Scottish Government Transgender consultation is currently incensing him.

I'm not sure where this is coming from. I don't discuss feminism with him but for a while now he has been initiating conversations along the lines of "isn't this awful...." . It might date from that documentary about legal brothels in Germany which really shocked him.

Re Ebearhug's manager , I'd be looking for another job.

That's interesting bear because in the scenario you've outlined there is a power imbalance, with you having less power and her having more so you were silenced.
That same power imbalance stops women calling out a lot of inappropriate comments, yet some men think if a woman is an assertive woman she would just call it out when a man says something objectionable.
How do we get men to recognise that without feeling defensive?

Sorry it was dancingbear

Like for example my DH is usually very feminist but thinks #metoo is trial by media. We had a row yesterday because he thinks Carl Sergeant was driven to suicide by being sacked without a trial, whereas I think if he was hassling women he works with there was no choice but to suspend him to protect his colleagues. DH just couldn't see my POV about how stressful it would be for a woman to work alongside a man who'd complained about her and also was applying criminal standards of guilt to a work situation. It really shocked me.

^That same power imbalance stops women calling out a lot of inappropriate comments, yet some men think if a woman is an assertive woman she would just call it out when a man says something objectionable.
How do we get men to recognise that without feeling defensive?^

This is an excellent point.

I've come to the conclusion threat unless we change tactic we will run out of energy pretty soon- which is why these movements come in waves.

Firstly I think we have to approach the sexism like a toddler being naughty: sternly, unemotionally and repeatedly at each offense. "This is not right/ that's how you do it/ well done" But we're in for a long haul so need to preserve energy

Sometimes I get side tracked by trying to explain why something is bothering me. I just want them to understand. None of that - they clearly can't. "Just do it/ don't do it" is the phrase

Sexism/ racism etc. we are all capable of it and unless we admit it to ourselves as well and then try and change these ingrained habits. Responsibility is key and we have a culture of pushing blame away. Can't remember last time I saw someone own up to a mistake at work. Or anywhere else. We have all these stories of celebrities getting away with murder (literally) and it's become ingrained in everyone that if you have a really good excuse, you can do whatever you want

The problem with calling things out is that it's so tiring to be on watch all the time. And then when you're caught off guard, you're not ready.

As for the boss scenario: it's much harder to criticize more recent culture change. But surely there would have been women before your boss "appalled" that a woman has a job or is a boss. Some women didn't want the vote!

*Pts I think he especially notices it at work as he works with a lot of women who he likes and respects and would hate to think of them being ill treated by men. He thinks they should be free to get on with their work and not be worrying about that sort of thing. Dh is very anti bullying at work too. So I really think that if Dh can think that way someone who is a bit more supportive of feminism should be really keen to stamp out abuse of women. If they aren't then I would ask why.

What does your DH think should have happened? He was suspended from the party pending investigations, which is a perfectly standard thing to do in an employment context when a serious allegation is made. The suspension meant he lost the Labour Whip, and therefore couldn’t be a member of the government.

Not sure what happened to my post but I was just saying my Dh isn't really a feminist but these revelations have made him angry too and he is very supportive of women who have been abused or harassed.

What does your DH think should have happened?
That it's innocent until proven guilty and he shouldn't have been suspended.
I can't get him to see it from the perspective of the women that reported it at all.
This is one of the convos that made me start the thread but there are others

If you were accused of any criminal offence it's quite likely you'd be suspended.

thedancingbear I dont think theres much more most men can do beyond

1. dont do it
2. dont tolerate others doing it when you see it.
3. dont complain its tiresome/oppressing you having to listen to women talk about it. If most men could do that it would actually be an improvement on the current situation.

We had a row yesterday because he thinks Carl Sergeant was driven to suicide by being sacked without a trial

Mine thought Sergeant was either in such a fragile state that no one could have reasonably foreseen this outcome or that he had done something terrible but either way the initial response to temporarily suspend him was appropriate.

I've heard them say they don't want to listen any more, they aren't like that and they feel like they are being blamed.

That's a guilty conscience talking. They know they've been party to stuff that they could have stopped.

DP, bless him, for all his (wiveswork) faults, doesn't feel this - I've spoken to him, well, ranted, more than once. I know because I've watched him, and spoken to him when he's late home, sorting out a female employee, or a woman in the street in trouble who he's passed (like an intoxicated women who he put in a taxi when the bouncers he approached refused to do anything to stop the men trying to get in a taxi with her for obviously nefarious purposes)

Frankly, sod them. I help women I see who need help. I know DP does the same. I raise my kids to know that women are people.

If a man really thinks he deserves a pat on the head for being a decent human being. If he really thinks that a group he belongs to, and there for has influence within has a reputation for a certain behaviour - he can influence that by not having that behaviour. by being a decent human being without cookies.

And fuck that otherwise.

You know who told me all men are potential rapists? It wasn't feminists.

It was every person who told be women were 'asking for it' when they were dressed a certain way. Every man who used the phrase "cock tease" and implied that was consent. Every poster and campaign telling women to not drink or get in a car or walk places. Every time a Court asked about clothes or behaviour. Every man who actually DID sexually harass me. And all the rapists, who raped my friends and family members.

Feminists told me that no means no and only yes means yes, and that men could and should be held to high standards because they were just as capable of it as we are.

Oh and Joss Whedon... jezebel.com/joss-whedons-ex-wife-he-is-not-who-he-pretends-to-be-1798143415 and www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/0/joss-whedon-5-times-blew-feminist-credentials/

A comment about the originally posted question. An acknowledgement that not ALL men are sexist predators would be a help. I am not suggesting there should be 'medals' for those who aren't, just leave out the comments that seem to imply that most are.
Obviously those who do act in an unsuitable manner should be 'tamed' by whatever method is the most suitable. It should also be borne in mind that women are not 'perfect' and the 'those without sin shall cast the first stone' principle should be considered.
Since humans are animals it is 'instinctive' that one sex will 'eye up' the other and both will do it. What is inappropriate is undue comment or physicality.
While it may be unpopular thing to say, women who dress 'too provocatively' should not be surprised if they receive inappropriate comments. I am referring to those 'movie stars' with cleavages down to their navel. Are these 'dresses' intended to be super comfortable to wear, to 'impress' other women or to get best 'publicity' in what is usually a male dominated industry?
Attacking the problems with all guns blazing with no acknowledgement of progress is not the way to go as it will make more 'enemies' on the way.

God MrsTP - that's a hashtag if ever I saw one.

#itwasnotfeminists that forced their penis inside me as I pushed against their chest, who told me 'not all men' when I said I didn't feel safe sleeping in the communal living room after a party. etc.

and as to Louis CK. I had refused to watch him because I got bad vibes, but was coming round to him because of static gifs that said good stuff. Pity it seems that my spidey sense was right - that he was one of the clever ones that you didn't want to be left alone with, and shouldn't leave your female friends alone with.

Wow, someone treats ' ' like sprinkles.

#itwasnotfeminists is accidentally a good hashtag. I don't tweet!

Sorry those things happened to you Fizzy.

fuck off poster outabout, apologist

A comment about the originally posted question. An acknowledgement that not ALL men are sexist predators would be a help. I am not suggesting there should be 'medals' for those who aren't, just leave out the comments that seem to imply that most are.

Those who stay silent are complicit.

No-one says all. we say men as a class. The vast majority of sexual assualts are by men. Doesn't actually matter if the vast majority of men commit sexual assaults, the statement is still true. This is about perpetrators, not about 'not all men'

Obviously those who do act in an unsuitable manner should be 'tamed' by whatever method is the most suitable. It should also be borne in mind that women are not 'perfect' and the 'those without sin shall cast the first stone' principle should be considered

Fuck that. If those that act 'in an unsuitable manner' are vast majority male, and those that are acted on in that unsuitable manner are female, then fuck that. I'll bloody throw rocks out of the greenhouse if I'm getting pelted.

Since humans are animals it is 'instinctive' that one sex will 'eye up' the other and both will do it. What is inappropriate is undue comment or physicality.

yeah... but only one is bigger and stronger than the other, with more societal weight behind them... do you think that might make a difference?

While it may be unpopular thing to say, women who dress 'too provocatively' should not be surprised if they receive inappropriate comments. I am referring to those 'movie stars' with cleavages down to their navel. Are these 'dresses' intended to be super comfortable to wear, to 'impress' other women or to get best 'publicity' in what is usually a male dominated industry?
You know what, I'm pretty high up (C-level in my industry) - no matter how tight the trousers and shirts of the men under my purview, I've never felt the need to so much as touch a knee, let along grab a crotch or invite to my hotel room.

Do you thing that the men I work with just aren't appealing enough (I am in a long term relationship with a peer, in case that helps)? Or do you think that possibly, I have control of my 'animal' nature, and so can separate professional environments from personal ones?

Attacking the problems with all guns blazing with no acknowledgement of progress is not the way to go as it will make more 'enemies' on the way.

Yeah.. you don't get a cookie for only grabbing my knee, rather than my crotch. Both are unacceptable.

Mrs TP - you have nothing to apologize for (for a start, Mr TP was a person, who through his writings, we can see evolved and learned feminism - and who I once saw but didn't interrupt at Beaconsfield services, in his little sportscar with the maggic numberplate)

Fuck the lot of them. I'm a nearly 40 year old woman who doesn't need to keep quiet.

apologize is the wrong word - sympathise - I'm fine, flowers not needed - thank god for strong women here, or I might not feel angry as well victimised.

who I once saw but didn't interrupt at Beaconsfield services

who I once saw but didn't interrupt at Beaconsfield services shock

Lol yeah a few years ago now... I noticed the number plate on the car first - something like 'MAGIXXX' on a little black mazda or similar then looked at the person getting out, and realised who it was...

If it helps (prob not), I also have a paperback of Johnny and the Bomb made out to an ex-boyfriend from the man himself who had lunch with him many years ago when visiting canterbury

The aforementioned penis owner who's chest I was pressing, so I don't feel guilty.

An acknowledgement that not ALL men are sexist predators would be a help.

Why?