Locker room talk

[CaptainWarbeck]

Did anyone listen to this segment on Woman's Hour recently? Project inspired by Trump, reviewed in the Guardian.

^Four women stand on stage wearing earpieces. They hear the words of real men interviewed by playwright Gary McNair and relay them back to us. Those men – doctors, cabbies, gym bunnies and manual workers – spring into life as their words spew across the stage.
^
“The best thing that comes out of a woman’s mouth is your knob, I would say, aye.” “They’re only good for being in the kitchen … make my dinner then give me my hole, and then go to your bed.” For an hour the words are relentless, as the voices swirl around, reinforcing and supporting each other. Always there and never challenged. But it’s all right, isn’t it? It’s only locker room banter.

I might be naive but I'm genuinely shocked by the misogyny, and how prevalent the playwright said he found it. DH says that in his experience locker room talk happens sometimes but it's not that bad. And I believed him. But this is awful.

Why do men do it? Because they actually hate women do you think? Or is it just showing off?

I'm also interested if anyone has experience of women talking like this. I have certainly heard women objectifying men, but not in a hateful way.

I just found this segment really depressing, I don't know how Jenni Murray kept so cool.

OP "Why do men do it? Because they actually hate women do you think? Or is it just showing off? "

these men actually hate women and despise women. Sadly I think they are the majority by far.

It's posturing. And it's absolutely awful how ingrained it is. Like someone above, my DH is switched on to sexism in a lot of ways, but might not notice quite misogynist language in a conversation with his friends. Purely because it's become so normal.

"Not all men" just isn't good enough anymore. Because the majority of men DON'T call out this stuff, because they don't notice it.

I said I thought it was a form of male bonding and I do. I also said men can compartmentalize stuff more than women. I never used this as an excuse or said it was a good thing. I also said such behaviour was disgusting. I also think that "bonding" in such a fashion is immature and horrendous - but it does happen. And there there has to be reason why so many men can apparently be in healthy relationships with women and say this stuff.

Just because you try to understand why people do things instead of simply going down the outraged route doesn't mean that you condone their behaviour.

God. Unless you express the correct sentiment in the correct way you are shouted down. And taken out of context.

thedancingbear Same here. It's most odd and I can't explain it. It's like glimpsing into a parallel universe.

And there there has to be reason why so many men can apparently be in healthy relationships with women and say this stuff.

It's not really relevant, although we have no way of knowing how many of the men who say these things are. Either way, there are plenty of men who are able to treat women in their families well but perpetuate a misogynist culture in how they talk of and treat other women and girls (which actually also harms the women they care about as other men will see them as such, contributed to by their own statements). If having women who are close to them meant men weren't misogynists then practically no men would be.

This misogyny is so normalised, with contempt for women and girls starting quite young in how women and girls are presented as lesser, objectified, the language isn't challenged and so the culture perpetuates.

Unless you express the correct sentiment in the correct way you are shouted down.

No-one has done this. Responding to your points not entirely in agreement isn't "shouting down".

'how can I hate women? my mum's one'. Chris Finch, The Office.

If they can come out with that shit, they're not in a healthy relationship. it might be functional by some definition, but it can't possibly be healthy.

Postage I'm sorry. I really didn't mean to shout you down, and looking back I can see you weren't condoning it by any means, just stating an opinion and trying to understand.

As in trying to understand the behaviour, not this thread! Gah, not trying to offend anyone here

I agree that I think it's bonding behaviour, or at least a kind of alpha male behaviour - almost like they're daring any other man to challenge it. And if no one does, then it confirms their alpha status and that they can get away with saying whatever.

DH's mate is over today. His considered opinion is that 'all men are pigs'. Right... I think I have a higher opinion of men than he does

Not enough men call it out, even though they are the ones in the best position to push this from being "just banter" to "completely unacceptable". Though I found this rather sweet article from 2016 about Joe Biden and Tom Hanks' response to the Trump locker room stuff pre-election.

DH has spent a lot of time in various sports changing rooms, and agrees that it's a "verbal big knob" thing.

It's one of the things that, if men really cared about women, could stop tomorrow. But they don't. So it doesn't.

exactly Bertrand

When I posted earlier, I didn't see about the company with staff going to a union to keep this kind of thing going. Says it all really.

Do they still actually have page 3 type pictures in the workplace? I worked in an otherwise all male environment (heavy industry) in the mid 80s where page 3 was the mild end of the spectrum. It was fairly disconcerting to me as a young woman. Though I have to say that, with only one creepy exception, the men were all very respectful (at least to my face).

Since then I have only worked in offices and never seen pin ups in any of them. I honestly thought they were banned now.

It's one of the things that, if men really cared about women, could stop tomorrow. But they don't. So it doesn't.

Yes. Very little else to be said.

They should be banned by any sensible employer, as they are leaving themselves liable to a claim of sexual harassment in the workplace.