Right. That's it. I'm done.

[OrderMeACurry]

Why do certain people (and it's always the same posers who do it) always feel the need to yell transphobic in threads but then don't bother to stick around and debate or even say what exactly it is they find transphobic? It drives me bonkers.

I actually feel like banging my head against a wall right now.

Curry point me in the direction your talking about.

?

They do it because they can't articulate their position so they shout "horrible transphobes" and run away.

Because their arguments lack evidence.

, Curry.

I massively appreciate your input into threads, but if you feel you have to step away from them for a while, then do so.

Feel free to come down the pub instead and just chat nonsense for a while (I always find that quite soothing when things are getting to me) - I seem to have elected myself landlady of the latest pub thread, and will have the gin/wine/ale/soft drink of your choice/coffee/pint mug of tea lined up ready for you.

I know what you mean curry.
I feel like I'm a reasonable, intellectually curious individual. I have opinions but am quite happy to shift position or respect a differing opinion if someone gives me a rational, well explained counter argument. I'm still waiting for that on this issue

It's always the same couple of posters though. Then when I tag them/quote them and try to get them to talk to me they don't bother. They just disappear...until the next thread It confuses the hell out of me tbh.

To be honest I'm glad if they don't stick around - otherwise it just derails the thread. See it as a positive!

Hmm...good point actually. I bet they probably don't even believe half the things they say themselves and they just want a reaction.

Fuck 'em.

Screw them...

And curry I seriously appreciate everything you say and the patience you show and for your honesty and relentless attempts at educating people... I would like to say a huge thank you.

OrderMeACurry

It always, always happens. It’s like some kind of rule of science.

Actually it’s better now than it used to be.

You would get over half the posters doing that. And, long before I had the confidence to post, feminists would painstakingly engage.

So gradually, over time, the balance has tipped.

I mean, this issue has only been on people‘s radar for a couple of years. And, because debate has been allowed to flourish here, the people on mumsnet are ahead of the game.

To start with, dozens of people demanded an entirely separate board for trans issues, so they didn’t have to look at them.

It’s only when people started to appreciate the difference between transsexuals and transactivists, that the negativity slowed down.

And the reaction you get on here is a microcosm of what people get elsewhere.

The bit that does confuse me though is when you tell people you are trans and they still don’t engage.

Viewpoints points are incredibly entrenched.

(and it's always the same posers who do it)

posers or posters?
They dont stick around because they aren't genuine and their views dont stand up to logic or analysis.

It's a game. Mumsnet is famous online for either transphobia or gender critical feminism, depending on your politics, because it's the only mainstream site that doesn't censor women over it. It's very shocking for young ones because they have never encountered the views of most people on this issue before, but also quite interesting/exciting for them. (A bit like sporning I think.) They know they can come in and poke and get this huge, satisfying response.

It's not a terrible outcome for either side of the debate really. If you can keep your cool and use it as an opportunity to work through your own arguments and maybe learn from others in the thread, it's only a way to bring the situation to the attention of more people.

I Got Kicked Off a Mumsnet Forum After Asking People About Transphobia - Vice

It’s quite helpful, because people new to the concern read all the responses to the challenge and get educated.
I do sympathise with them being unable to lose the 'must bend over backwards and tie myself into a pretzel to accommodate trans people, even though I can’t explain why' attitude. I’m one of those who wants to welcome and accommodate, but have realised that there is a point beyond which we simply can’t go. Interestingly, there's something in common with gay marriage in that for some people the definition of marriage involves a man and a woman. They aren’t homophobic as such, but their definition of marriage was inflexible. Obviously, the current attempt to redefine 'woman' is beyond problematic.

Frustrating. Well done for hanging in there, Curry.

I think for some people the cognitive dissonance of being logical, objective people who like facts and a strong belief that trans people are treated unfairly and should be treated as their chosen sex, means they get very upset with the debate and can't actually engage. They have to shut it down to protect those two competing beliefs.

Or they are trolling. Who knows?

Hide the threads if they are too annoying curry, you don't have to fight this fight all the time.

Curry you were amazing on that thread, as was Datsun. Calm, specifically addressing points, continually just pointing out the illogic. It is depressing and tiring, but a lot of women on that thread have mentioned peaking due to threads like it, and many more will be reading and starting to see the issues.

Yes it's very dispiriting when some idiot throws out a 'you're all bastards' post and won't discuss but it proves all over again that the claim isn't true and why #nodebate is the key phrase.

I do sympathise with them being unable to lose the 'must bend over backwards and tie myself into a pretzel to accommodate trans people, even though I can’t explain why' attitude.

That’s very telling statement. There’s a brainwashing going on. And when someone is asked to account for themself, rather than what
they have been indoctrinated with, it all unravels.

And it’s particularly insidious because women are being told, during this brainwashing, that it’s out of kindness and compassion that they should agree. It’s not logic or rationality that is persuading them, it’s being nice.

Very many times, I have seen someone run out of arguments and then just say but why wouldn’t you, why do you have to be so mean?

It’s dangerous on so many levels. It is removing critical thinking, it is reinforcing stereotypes of women having to be nice, it’s bullying women to shut the fuck up.

Still, bring it on. Because frankly, it works both ways. When fish first came on and spoke about her child, it changed the way I thought.

It made me see how it wasn’t just the trans-ideology, it was transactivists. There was a definite separation in my head about who was doing the damage.

What was incredible about that particular thread was how feminists are parents of trans-children ended up more or less on the same side.

It took a while, but through calm, compassionate discourse an understanding was reached, which gave rise to a solidarity.

So the more people who come on to disagree, the better, in my opinion.

@OrderMeACurry - for the shit you've been dealt on that other thread. You really, really do not deserve that. And especially awful when you'd summoned up the courage to stick your head above the parapet yet again on behalf of all of us. Hang on in there - hopefully this current madness will pass. I take heart from the fact that it is being discussed rationally in the main stream media at last.

I completely agree @PricklyBall and to make matters worse, MNHQ zapped Curry's post on that thread. Seriously, wtaf?!

Curry