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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Owen Jones. Again. This is re Kevin Spacey so some content warning.

63 replies

Elendon · 30/10/2017 19:48

This quote from the article he wrote makes me feel deeply uncomfortable. He is a Guardian Columnist. He is a champion for gay men and gay men only. His empathy doesn't extend to Lesbians in the Lgbtq rights.

It is a deeply personal moment, and only those who use their platforms to further the cause of homophobia (like secretly gay politicians who vote against LGBTQ rights) should be outed against their will.

So he calls for people to be outed against their will, if they are politicians? Has he lost the plot?

This is the article in full, if you can stomach it.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/30/kevin-spacey-vicious-lie-gay-men-accusation-attempted-sexual-assault

What Kevin Spacey did was child abuse and came out as gay at the same time. Oh the horror. Being gay does not exclude you from the panoply of those who will and are inclined to abuse children.

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Datun · 30/10/2017 21:51

So say the trans ideology does start to attract negative attention. Jones can say, see, I knew this would happen. First of all everyone thinks gay men are paedophiles, and now they think transwomen are responsible for the abuse of children (and possibly paedophiles).

Waaaaah.

And conflate the whole thing under LGBT.

Datun · 30/10/2017 21:53

This feels to me like a pre-emptive piece. The premise that he’s putting forward does not hold altogether.

Elendon · 30/10/2017 21:53

So, if an older male who abused a 14 year male then in later years decided to change gender, would his past life be erased? Would he be okay to champion?

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Datun · 30/10/2017 21:53
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Elendon · 30/10/2017 22:00

And who exactly is the arbitrar of whether or not a person should be outed. Are there rules, guidelines, personal opinions?

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LassWiTheDelicateAir · 30/10/2017 22:00

Wtf is this about spacey coming out anyway - I thought it had been known for years he was gay?

Yes , me too.

QuentinSummers · 30/10/2017 22:04

an older male who abused a 14 year male then in later years decided to change gender, would his past life be erased?

We have seen a bit of that with Kellie Maloney (www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3133217/I-remember-fear-face-Kellie-Maloney-reveals-inner-torment-living-secret-double-life-led-nearly-strangle-ex-wife-holiday.html) and I'm sure there is a murderer who said the crime was committed by the man they had been but was nothing to do with them now as they were female.
Found it now but took ages. Google is very averse to finding transgender murderers

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4654554/amp/Transgender-woman-guilty-murdering-3-prostitutes.html

hipsterfun · 30/10/2017 22:07

I know, you could’ve knocked me down with a feather.

Datun · 30/10/2017 22:52

I’m not on Twitter but I’ve just read elsewhere that Jones is on there (about an hour ago) being positive about the transing of children.

I wonder if he’s anything to shed any light on this article.

Perhaps if anyone is on there they can take a look.

Mantegnaria · 30/10/2017 23:06

I've read this thread.

I still have no idea what half of the posts are even about.

As for the acronyms, I really have no idea what they mean. Am I also allowed to string together random letters and say it's a thing ?

TreaterAnita · 30/10/2017 23:19

I’m not sure you’re making much sense Elendon. He’s talking about outing hypocrites, like gay politicians who vote against gay rights, or men like Spacey who have remained publicly closeted and only come out when being accused of paedophilia, and there can be no doubt that this was an attempt to deflect attention from a crime that he is alleged to have committed by seeking protection from a community he has never acknowledged before. And yes, the conflation of gay and paedophile that this creates is damaging to a community which is still v vulnerable in many parts of the world. I disagree with Owen Jones on quite a few things, but I think he is legitimately angry about this. And I don’t see how he’s victim blaming.

FloraFox · 31/10/2017 00:07

Wtf is this about spacey coming out anyway - I thought it had been known for years he was gay?

I think he always refused to confirm it although the 4am walks with his dog on Clapham Common were a bit of a giveaway

BingoFlamingo · 31/10/2017 07:29

Eledon, you say his empathy doesn't extend to Lesbian rights, yet you then quote him saying politicians who vote against LGBT rights should be exposed. You do know what the L stands for?

BingoFlamingo · 31/10/2017 07:33

FYI TreaterAnita, Spacey hasn't been accused of paedophilia.

HouseholdWords · 31/10/2017 08:35

I don't think we should underestimate still the pressure of being "normal" - although I tend to assume most men I work with are gay unless I know otherwise, I know enough not to underestimate the difficulties of coming out and staying out. I'm straight - I don't have to "explain" my sexuality, or hide it, or excuse it, or tell people about it. Gay men & lesbians still have to do this everyday.

I also think that sexual preference is not necessarily something you can put in a box and fix. I'm sure we all know men & women whose preferences shift. I think that current liberal groovy beliefs are rather more fixed in being "cool" - one only has to look at Shakespeare's plays to see that fluidity in sexual preference is as old as people. And to accept that is far "cooler" and more progressive, than putting people in fixed boxes. [see also: cool progressive thinking about gender roles ad infinitum]

On the other hand, yes, Spacey has deflected the accusation of abuse with his public coming out.

But it's interesting that the widespread harassment & abuse of women is being sidelined by the prospect of gay male child abuse. Homophobia & misogyny all there in one go.

So actually, in this case, I think Owen Jones has a point.

Although I don't agree with the 'outing' movement - but iirc, it was at its height during the AIDS crisis, when gay men & activists argued that powerful closeted gay men staying closeted added to the lack of understanding and nasty homophobic panic about AIDS. [See Tony Kushner's Angels in America for a sense of the feel of those times].

Although on that topic, the gay activist movement's sense that no-one cared about gay men dying of AIDS is not borne out by subsequent events: research on HIV/AIDS boomed - far more than research on typical "women's diseases." Plus ça change and all that.

HornyTortoise · 31/10/2017 10:02

Eledon, you say his empathy doesn't extend to Lesbian rights, yet you then quote him saying politicians who vote against LGBT rights should be exposed. You do know what the L stands for?

He has used LGBTQ...because his lack of empathy towards lesbians who are being told they are transphobic not to suck dick...would be too obvious if he left L out. Its just an acronym. He clearly has a very dim view on gay women given his past comments and views.

HornyTortoise · 31/10/2017 10:02

I find Spacey coming out at the same time as this allegation pretty disgraceful tbh. Not as disgraceful as his 'I might have done more' and saying he cannot remember abusing a kid though. Thats low...

Namebot · 31/10/2017 10:09

Incidentally there have been a number of “blind items” alluding to spacey’s sexual activities in Thailand over the years ( not referring to his sexuality) :(

Datun · 31/10/2017 10:19

Namebot

What does that mean?

I’ve read it twice, but it’s still not clear?

Namebot · 31/10/2017 10:28

Blind items are a way that celebrity gossip sites ( I know 😔) print stories about well known people without naming them directly. The story includes heavy hints about who that person actually is. It could be for example about an individual having an affair or a person abusing under age teenagers in countries that are targeted by pedophiles ☹️.

YoungBritishPissArtist · 31/10/2017 10:38

What does NAGMALT mean? I’ve tried googling but nada.

Datun · 31/10/2017 10:40

Ah ok. Thanks. I believe Spacey was the subject of at least one such blind item around the time of the alleged assault.

The assault was reported without naming the alleged perpetrator.

I saw an article yesterday which said Anthony Rapp was jumping on the #metoo bandwagon. Clearly he isn’t, as he told many people at the time.

It really is very difficult indeed for men to grasp the sheer scale of sexual harassment.

Which is completely illogical, given how many of them are guilty of it.

DJBaggySmalls · 31/10/2017 10:45

NAGMALT = Not All Gay Men Are Like That.
No one said all gay men are like that. If Spacey is critisized for anything it should be the lack of a decent apology.
And Owen really does have a poor track record on lesbian rights.

hipsterfun · 31/10/2017 10:47

YBPA, it means Not All Gay Men Are Like That (variant of NAMALT).

Datun · 31/10/2017 10:48

NAMALT and NAGMALT are used to pre-empt people accusing feminists of saying all men are terrible.

It’s used as a strawman argument. Oh my God feminists hate men, they think we’re all rapists.

Nope. Just the ones who are.