British gymnastics just asked whether my son's gender matches the sex he was assigned at birth.

[Splandy]

I've come across the ridiculous notion of sex being assigned before now, but not in a form like this. Is this the way it is now? Have other people come across this? The form asked for his gender, then his sex, then whether the gender he identifies as matches the sex he was assigned at birth. There was no option to choose anything other than male or female for gender, then there was a 'prefer not to say' option for sex and the same for the question on assigned sex. There was no option to say that I refuse to/can't answer the question because it doesn't make sense, so I had to click prefer not to say. Either way, I had to accept that his sex was assigned at birth, rather than observed. Considering sending an email but doubt it'll make a difference.

Dear Paperclipmover

Thank you for your email. I am sorry to hear that you have been upset by the use of the word ‘assigned’. I appreciate and understand the concerns you are raising and hope that my email will go some way to explain our rationale and the reasons why we are asking for such information.

‘Assigned’ sex refers to the sex that a baby is interpreted to be at birth. As you suggest, this is normally based on observing the appearance of a baby and is usually not ambiguous. In some cases, the assigned sex may not correspond to the actual chromosomal sex and sometimes assigned sex has to be changed later in life. Further, sometimes children know from a very young age that although they are considered as being one gender based on their birth sex, they do not identify with this gender.

There is some UK based research that estimates that about 1% of the British population are gender non-conforming to some degree. While this is not specific to children we are aware of research conducted in New Zealand based on over 8000 high school aged children reported 1.2% being trans and 2.5% reported being uncertain about their gender identity.

Some children change their gender role sometimes before starting or during their early years in school. This is reflected in our experience as a governing body as we have seen a significant increase in the number of calls from clubs and parents who have children who wish to join or compete in gymnastics but identify with a gender that is different from the sex they were assigned at birth. We have a number of calls that relate to pre-school children and it is apparent from other calls that some of the children have been very aware of their gender identity before they start school. Consequently we felt that is was appropriate to ask this question of all members. This will enable us to get an accurate statistic picture of the diversity of our members and help us to target resources and services so that they can be most effective.

We are working hard to promote equality and inclusion, not only because we have a statutory responsibilities in this area but also because we strongly believe it is the right thing to do. We realise that not everyone agrees and may find the questions we ask for monitoring purposes (that reflect the protected characteristics set out the in Equality Act 2010) to be intrusive. We completely accept that some members may feel this way, which is why we always allow members to indicate the ‘prefer not to say’ in respect of each question. I have attached a copy of our equality monitoring questions that provides further information that may be helpful to you.

We have developed a policy to support the inclusion of trans (or transgender) people in the sport, which we hope will raise awareness. The statistical information we have collected is really important as it enables us to monitor the impact of such policies and whether they support greater inclusion at all levels of the sport and particularly at the grassroots right of the sport. The policy is being presented to the Board in December. Please let me know if you would like me to send you a copy once it has been approved.

Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any further questions.

Kind regards,

Name
Compliance & Standards Manager
[cid:[email protected]]
Governing Body of the Year | BT Sport Industry Awards 2016 Winner

T. 0345 1297129
M. 07715081403
W. british-gymnastics.org

I'm not educated or strong enough to break this answer down. I just said thank you but my child's sex was not assigned, it just IS. I've put the response here in case anyone else wishes to deconstruct the argument or just have the knowledge.

I feel like a bigot now, I also feel really depressed about all these pre-school children who don't conform to their gender . Not because they don't conform to societies gender strereotyoes just because there are stereotypes and parents who would call the British Gym association to tell them and the pain and confusion.

Now, how do I go about getting equal pay for the women...

Wow, well done, I haven't even managed to email yet. That is a very detailed response, which is more than I was expecting. But the take home message for me is that if there weren't stereotypes to adhere to, this problem couldn't even be a problem because gender wouldn't exist. And you wouldn't need to have a gender identity.

I don't tend to do drop offs so it's unlikely, sorry! I'd bloody love to bump into a feminist where I live but it hasn't happened so far in my life. Lots of small talk reinforcing stereotypes, though.

Oh, I feel like a bigot all the time. I don't have many people in real life who I would talk to about this. I imagine that people would struggle to understand how I am so left wing and liberal in every other sense and then a total bigot on this one topic.

I may have a go at replying to that email myself but I'm also not particularly well educated. But I shouldn't need to be.

The key dishonesty occurs in the third paragraph following the second.

The second paragraph refers to "assigned" as being the correct language to refer to sex determination for intersex babies. The third paragraph, structured to develop the line of reasoning started in the second then actually refers to a different thing altogether, gender non-conforming people. Although these two things are linked in that response, they are actually unrelated. Linking them in this way is dishonest.

However, it's not just a matter of dishonesty. There's also the issue of integrity. Since intersex people have been asking for a long time not to be used as "a thing" supporting an argument in the trans debate, it is pretty offensive.

Quite simply, whenever someone advocating the current trans ideology hides behind the skirts* of intersex people, you know you are being lied to.

• other gender conforming and gender non-conforming items of clothing are available

This idea that "about 1% of the British population are gender non-conforming to some degree." What does this actually mean? Surely nearly everyone is gender non-conforming to some degree? I don't conform to gender norms because they're bullshit, not because I'm confused or questioning about my sex.

When my DS aged 5 asks for a Barbie playset for Christmas, is he being gender non-conforming? He has long hair for a boy as well, so he must be gender non-conforming? Except he doesn't care a jot about gender stereotypes because I've tried my best to insulate him from the worst excesses of our society's obsession with gender norms. He just likes what he likes with no judgement or comment from me or his dad.

we have seen a significant increase in the number of calls from clubs and parents who have children who wish to join or compete in gymnastics but identify with a gender that is different from the sex they were assigned at birth
This bit worries me, due to the additional advantage males may have in some gymnastic sport. BG covers tumbling, trampolining etc as well as artistic gym. I guess they have to collect the data to understand the ramifications of allowing trans athletes to compete based on gender identity rather than sex.
I don't however expect to see a rush of trans women attempting to do artistic. I think they would be heavily disadvantaged on beam

The whole thing makes very little sense. If 'sex assigned at birth' was trying to be sensitive to people who are intersex then they are asking the wrong question.

This is the only group of people for whom their original 'assignment' might be incorrect, and so should simply be asked (like everyone else) what sex they are (when that sex is relevant, ie for putting an older child in the correct group for competitions). Otherwise it's pretty intrusive really, I would expect most parents would tick 'prefer not to say'. If there are issues to be explored then that would come in the medical section of the form at such a point when it becomes relevant (if it ever does).

There is already a 'gender' box. Totally unnecessary in my view, that's the one I'd want to opt out of, and what about all the non-binaries? (or indeed the 2.5% who aren't sure as there isn't a box for them to tick either) If they want to know if they have any children who feel their gender isn't the same as their sex then they have all the data they need (ie sex 'male' + gender 'female' plus of course 'female' isn't a gender classification anyway).

If they are interested in gender non conformity (and what's that got to do with a children's gymnastics club?) then they haven't asked that either. The little boys with long hair/ little girls with short hair won't get picked up with this form. My ds has much longer hair than his sister and is a MLP fan, while my dd is quite 'butch' at times but neither of them have changed sex (or gender) since they were born.

It's all such an incoherent mess.

Oh and gender identity isn't a protected class so they have their legislation wrong too.

Never mind Splandy, I'll continue to drink my tea alone during gym class. I might do a bit of feminist self education over Google while I'm waiting around.

nauticant is "assigned" actually a term used to talk about intersex people but the word has been taken over to describe anyone who doesn't conform to a gender stereotype?
I'm glad you pointed out how the argument in the response didn't make sense. I couldn't make sense of it but I thought it was me just not understanding.

I've been incredibly conscious as a parent to try and not play into gender stereotypes. I blithely assumed all right minded people did the same. So I'm reeling a bit from the mess we seem to be in.

Oh and on the thread about 'assigned at birth' (in AIBU) a mother of a child with an intersex condition described how difficult and stressful a time they had while his initial issues were discovered and before his sex was confirmed (through chromosomal tests). She said that this type of wording would be really unhelpful and make her her feel very anxious so she'd pick the option not to disclose. So a question purportedly to support intersex children that may only succeed in upsetting their families.

@Paperclipmover: In determining the sex of intersex babies, if there is uncertainty about whether the baby is male or female, a choice is made of which sex would be appropriate and this is then "assigned" to the baby.

In recent times, in the trans community, "assigned" has been adopted but means something different. Male people say they were "assigned male at birth" (AMAB) and female people say they were "assigned female at birth" (AFAB). For these people their sex was never in doubt and they are clearly male or female. In effect, they're saying that their actual sex is wrong. But where is the wrongness? It's not in their bodies, because a male person has a male body. It's not in the determination carried out by a medical professional because in nearly all cases that is simply observing the fact of a baby's sex. The answer is in their view of themselves. The argument is that although a baby's sex is clear, a medical professional was not able to see that the baby had an internal male or female essence that did not match that sex.

There is no evidence to support this male or female essence.

Thanks nauticant that's helpful.

There is no evidence to support this male or female essence.. really, I'm surprised, I got mine from Waitrose.

I just read a headline in a newspaper (daily mail....i know it serves me right)

I had to read the article as the headline had me confused

'Transgender plane mechanic who lived as a man for 40 years has come out to her 'macho' colleagues'

Fucks sake

Thanks for posting the email reply from British Gymnastics. Paperclipmover. Even if they wish to gather stats on how many trans-identifying children are involved in gymnastics they don't need to use the words 'sex assigned at birth'. They could merely write 'sex at birth' and then ask about gender if they must.

So, I wrote to British gymnastics about the ridiculous assigned sex at birth question and got a reply today.

As has been talked about on other threads, it is very worrying as they seem to be under the impression and acting in accordance with GRA laws that don’t exist (yet). Notably that they have a requirement to facilitate trans children’s gender identity.

Also worrying is that the response explains that children will be put in competitions based on their gender not sex.

I’ll post my email and their response next.
I feel like I want to write back to pick apart the wrongness of their response & the policy they are now endorsing but would really welcome some ideas about where to start

(I’ve name changed for this post)

Email to British gymnastics

Hello,

I noticed when I filled in the membership form that you use are using an unscientific term on your form. As a result, I was not able to answer the question, so had to leave it as 'prefer not to say'

It may be worthwhile speaking to a biologist or a doctor to advise you.

You request to know my child's gender. Gender is a set of stereotypes that people attribute to the sex of a person. It would be more accurate to simply ask for the sex of the child as this is scientific fact, not a matter of interpretation or identity.

You then request to know what my child was assigned at birth. This term is not accepted by the scientific community and has gained traction by a vocal political group. Apart from a tiny percentage, 1.7% of people who are born with a chromosomal abnormality and who are intersex, babies are not assigned a sex. Their sex is observed. Their sex is not chosen by the doctor or midwife, their sex is defined by their DNA on every cell of their body and by the genitals they have and the entire structure of their body.
This question should simply be 'What is the sex of your child'

I welcome the fact that you are striving to be inclusive of diversity, but if you wish to do this, there are huge range of other chromosomal divergences that you should also include if this is the case, for example, down syndrome. It would be good for you to refer to clear scientific data, not to rely on political ideology.

As an aside, a good friend has a child who was born intersex and she has found this question on the form very intrusive and upsetting and she does not see why you should be demanding such information and how it will help in an everyday setting for gymnastics.

Regards,

And the response:

Thank you for your email on our membership registration process. It is always very useful to receive feedback from people who have used the new system. I have provided some comment on the points you raise which may be helpful to understand the rational for our approach.

You note in your email that we invite members to provide their gender. This question, which is asked on the ‘Create your account’ page is voluntary for some members but we indicate the information is required for competition purposes. The reason why we ask for gender (rather than sex) is that BG members can take part in competitions based on their affirmed gender (rather than sex). This approach is in line with guidance provided to sports organisations by the UK Home Country Sports Council Equality Group.

On the ‘Equality and Diversity’ page, we ask a number of voluntary questions for the purpose of anonymous statistical of our membership. The first question asks about the member’s sex, which you indicate you agree is the correct question to ask. The next question asks: ‘is the gender to which you identify the same as the sex that was assigned at birth’. Both questions are slightly different from the way you recall them. The reason we have asked the second question is to monitor the percentage of our membership who have the protected characteristic of gender-reassignment (and have attached our equality monitoring FAQs that provide further information). UK-based research estimates that about 1% of the British population are gender non-conforming to some degree, which for an organisation of our size may equate to around 3000 members.

‘Assigned’ sex refers to the sex that a baby is interpreted to be at birth. This is normally based on observing the appearance of a baby and is usually not ambiguous. In some cases, the assigned sex may not correspond to the actual chromosomal sex and sometimes assigned sex has to be changed later in life. Further, sometimes children know from a very young age that although they are considered as being one gender based on their birth sex, they do not identify with this gender. We really do not want to upset people by asking these difficult questions but hope our members understand we have a responsibility to support everyone to access the services we provide, particularly those who face multiple barriers in many aspects of their lives. We consulted with a range of organisations about how best to ask this question and have received a very small number of emails from people who were concerned about the use of the word ‘assigned’. We will continue to monitor these concerns and will review whether there is a better way to ascertain this information next year.

Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any further questions or feedback.

Kind regards,

I’ve added this to the Gender Critical to do list

BarbarianMum, I belong to your clan. No gender here. Just biologically a woman who likes what I like and do what I do.
When my eldest child was six, she declared that she would like to be an otter. Fair enough really.

UK Home Country Sports Council Equality Group.

Who the fuck are they then that they let men compete as women? Girls gymnastics is going to be fucked right up isn't it?

On their homepage:

'Almost twice as many men take part in sport than women. We're working to narrow the gender gap.' by letting some of those men say they're women: ta da!

The UK Home Country Sports Council Equality Group homepage that is.

I find their belief that expecting children to commit to a gender role at an early stage of development promotes equality and inclusion to be absolutely absurd and outrageous. I think that their actions are an abuse of authority.