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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

ponderingprobably · 26/09/2017 09:16

....in the future, might they perform a quick 'magic wand' type 'procedure' for those who did not have the relevant physical organs? For the sake of 'inclusivity'!

TheWeeWitch · 26/09/2017 11:46

Well look here now, there’s this helpful person explaining how “pre pre verbal” (Hmm)1-2 year old children can be misgendered and how you, as a parent, can understand the “gender messages” they express.

I’m giving her this Biscuit

https://vimeo.com/185149379

ponderingprobably · 26/09/2017 12:30

How can a person tell someone else, they are misgendered? How would a transactivist feel if somebody came along and said, 'You've got this wrong. The gender you are identifying is actually one attached to your biological (birth, as per trans activist ideology) sex.' I suspect that wouldn't go down well.

So a pre verbal child cannot actually express in language how they feel about whether they identify with, how they perceive, the gender associated with their sex. They are only just beginning to form ideas of what it means to be male or female. They even cannot communicate these ideas that are only beginning to form, as their language abilities have only just begun developing.

Madness.

ponderingprobably · 26/09/2017 12:35

And if societal expectations and not personal beliefs are the only relevant criteria regarding gender, wouldn't this go against self identification?

BelaLugosisShed · 26/09/2017 18:42

The more I think about the new Birth certificate issue, the more angry and bewildered I get. Who decided that it was right or necessary for people to be able to have an official document that lies about your birth sex?

A GRC in your preferred gender , fine , if you feel better for a piece of paper. A birth certificate could actually act against you though? If a person being interviewed for a Female only job is very obviously Male ( 6ft 3, bearded etc. ) but has a Female BC , it's going to set off major alarm bells and the employer won't take the risk, will they?

Datun · 26/09/2017 23:06

If a person being interviewed for a Female only job is very obviously Male ( 6ft 3, bearded etc. ) but has a Female BC , it's going to set off major alarm bells and the employer won't take the risk, will they?

Or they might get taken to a tribunal. Their defence will be they don't want to employ someone who is delusional. But they will lose their case on the basis of transphobia.

Datun · 26/09/2017 23:15

Although, having said that, I wonder if you could refuse to hire them on the basis that they are a man. If they claim you have been transphobic, you could counter that by saying you would employ a transman. So it can't be transphobic.

I'm just trying to play out in my head how the legality of this could pan out.

Exitedwoman · 27/09/2017 01:07

That vimeo! Pulling things out of their hair, making their onesie into a dress! They don't even know what culture they're in. How utterly nonsensical.

Exitedwoman · 27/09/2017 01:08

(That was to WeeWitch.)

ponderingprobably · 27/09/2017 06:58

There seems to be conflicting ideas within the transactivist kind of transidealogy.

  1. is it societal or personal beliefs that decide upon what gender is 'Cis' or 'Trans / Non-Binary'?

If it is societal beliefs then somebody should not be allowed to 'self identify'. These are the only conditions whereby it might be considered (because they haven't undergone full socialisation yet) a child might be trans and make decisions for them based on this. The whole or at least majority of society needs to agree with the definition. Discussions have to be allowed to take place which include a diverse group of representatives including those from feminists groups.

If it is personal beliefs that decide upon what gender is 'Cis' or 'Trans/Non-Binary' then someone can be allowed to self identify. No one would be able to make decisions for a child or anyone else, upon their behalf, regarding their gender. A child would have to reach a suitable age to make an irreversible decision themselves when they can fully understand the ramifications.

  1. 'Cis' privilege. If this is considered an issue then it supports the idea 'trans/non-binary' should have protected status. However if, there is no way of establishing someone is trans, birth certificates are changed and self identification takes away the need for any official certification to say someone has transitioned etc how would people know who to protect?
franke · 27/09/2017 07:07

This is a timely thread. I just came on literally to ask if there are any resources which clearly and succinctly explain the distinction between sex and gender suitable for a 15yo (DD is discussing it in ethics class, not in UK). I want to explain my position to her which concurs with the views expressed in this thread. Or maybe I don't need to say more than pondering's first post...

Original poster
Terrylene · 27/09/2017 13:31

Understanding gender diversity starts here, at primary school level, before children’s views become influenced by the prejudices of the adults around them.

GIRES education resources for 3-6 years............. www.gires.org.uk/classroom-lesson-plans/

Complete with cute penguins.

It used to be the Jesuits who were credited with "Give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man"

OP posts:
Original poster
Terrylene · 27/09/2017 13:33

Adorable, aren't they [wicked] Grin

Gender Identity Explained
OP posts:
PoppyPopcorn · 27/09/2017 13:36

All this "assigned at birth" stuff is just total bollocks - as if the midwife tosses a coin to decide sex.

AssassinatedBeauty · 27/09/2017 13:37

That GIRES resource gives me the rage every time I see it. So much is wrong with it, its propaganda and I would be livid if it was presented as fact to my children.

SymbollocksInteractionism · 27/09/2017 13:46

Terylene, that can't be real can it??
I've seen so much gender related crazy shit that I'm not sure anymore!! 😱😱

Gileswithachainsaw · 27/09/2017 13:47

I couldn't even watch the whole video. I switched off at "gender message " over hair clips.

Find me a toddler who doesn't much about with their clothes and hair.

How the hell do people get away with pre deciding this long painful path based on societal opinions/stereo types and perfectly normal child behaviour Confused

Thelilywhite · 27/09/2017 13:50

Words fail me. Im going to send the link to every primary teacher I know

SymbollocksInteractionism · 27/09/2017 13:51

I would also be furious if any of my children were taught this shit at school!!

Thelilywhite · 27/09/2017 13:53

Love your user name symbolllocks !

Original poster
Terrylene · 27/09/2017 13:54

You know you're name is Sally, like you know you're black and white

It is funny - their grammar is like their message - you know it doesn't sound quite right and it takes a while to untangle what is actually wrong with it.

The are conflating your and you're, just like sex and gender Grin Grin

OP posts:
SymbollocksInteractionism · 27/09/2017 13:54

So we will just have to collude with people's delusions and fuck reality!!

AssassinatedBeauty · 27/09/2017 13:57

The bit that is the worst for me is in the KS3 presentation, if i remember rightly, which has a jolly picture of two (identical) brains labelled male and female, with a blue and a pink dot on each. Then it says that it is your "BRAIN" that indicates your sex, not anything else to do with your body. They claim this is somehow "hard-wired" into brains, presumably from birth.

Mind you I also find the bit about "cis" people being totally happy with society's gender roles and gender expectations to be rage-inducing as well.

SymbollocksInteractionism · 27/09/2017 13:58

Thank you Thelilywhite
I'm currently fuckingfurioussymbollocksinteractionism, might be too long a user name though! 😂

ponderingprobably · 27/09/2017 14:10

"Understanding gender diversity starts here, at primary school level, before children’s views become influenced by the prejudices of the adults around them."

So the resource suggests an individual gets to decide and not society? Well why is the resource biased in the way it actively suggests changing gender is the 'better option'? Here:

"Changing gender is 'great' (although your friends probably won't mind if you don't)" and 'Most importantly changing gender will get you a massive party)"

So child thinks 'Oh no, my friends might mind if I don't change gender' because the fact that this is mentioned, suggests it is a possibility and introduces uncertainty. They might also think 'I like parties, I want a party, I can have one if I change gender'.

Surely if a resource wants to be inclusive of self identification, in terms of gender, it should not be biased towards gender transition because offering real free choice means offering a non 'loaded' choice (in terms of rewards/punishments).

And people can tell a child's sex when they are born. If there is any ambiguity, a DNA test could be ordered.

Because gender is to do with how people believe people of each sex should look and behave the message for an inclusive society should be, 'Clothes and behaviour (and names) do not have to be ruled by whether you are a boy or girl. People can choose, themselves, how to to dress and behave. Good and bad behaviour is not different for boys and girls'.