Our own worst enemy?

[TopiaryTop]

Forgive me if this has been done before (it probably has) as I have not gone through all the many threads. I was reading yet another thread about WOHM vs SAHM and as usual there were people who liked to come out on different sides saying which has it easier. In other threads about MIL it often seems the females in the family have issues with each other and ignore the males. It just seems like women judge other women in so many ways. When it comes to men, they don't seem as judgemental (in general) of each other. It also seems like a lot of the time the older females want to perpetuate unfairness on the younger females. For example, older women who think child care or housework is solely the responsibility of the mum despite both parents being there. I am not saying ALL women are like this, but it seems like we as females seem to run each other down just as much as build each other up. Or is my view just skewed by my own personal experiences....

Well, we are definitely not our own worst enemy, seeing as it is still men who rape and murder women.

But yeah, lots of women have internalized misogyny and take it out on other women.
There is a problem with that. Though I think it often appears larger than it really is, because we feel more betrayed when it is women who do it, while with men, it is just expected.

With some things, like policing other women's looks, the fact that women do it means that men don't have to - you notice that when you walk around with unshaved legs and men with equally hairy legs complain. (That sort of thing is even more complicated, as mothers may force their daughters to conform out of a genuine desire to protect them from having their feelings hurt by a man.)

I think supporting other women and girls is vital and hope I'll always ensure I do. That's not to say women can't disagree with one another and I think when women do it's pointed out far more, so the perception may be that men "don't seem as judgemental of each other" (when from what I can tell they are, if anything, far more so and certainly aren't less so).

There's so much pressure on women and girls in so many ways and misogyny is in my opinion so inherent in society that it's sadly not surprising when the kind of judgement or comments you mention in the OP come from women as well. It's so pervasive.

There was a moment in the recent programme "No More Boys and Girls" which shone through to me (on a different note to the rest of the programme) - when one girl scored the maximum "10" on a test of strength having predicted herself a 3 and started crying, a bit unsure of how she felt, maybe sad she'd underestimated herself so much, a number of other girls started hugging and congratulating her, one saying she'd "get her a card and bring it to your house". Might sound irrelevant but that's my experience of other girls, so supportive and kind. Being at a girls' school I feel the overriding culture is of supporting one another and building one another up, which I feel aided by regularly.

I am definitely not denying that there are men who make women's lives miserable. There are plenty of those. Sorry, maybe I shouldn't have said own worst enemy (I am a new on this board)

I guess I wish women would be more supportive of each other? Be less judgemental? I guess I am judging now. : ( I have a bad feeling I will be out of my depth here soon!

sorry --- not saying there aren't men who make lives miserable!

(I should look before I post)

I have a bad feeling I will be out of my depth here soon!

Don't think that, I know what you mean! I definitely think it's vital for women to support one another and build one another up.

I think that women have more potential to do harm. As pointed out women are often more concerned about what other women think. Mother of course hold a particular position of power when it comes to influencing their own daughters as well. Women are also more prone to emotional outbursts when contradicted or to take another woman's choice to act/live differently as a personal criticism. However these things are not exclusive to women and making any sweeping statement about what women do or don't do would be a bit of a pointless generalisation.

I know what you mean TopiaryTop. This is partly what I mean when I say I'm a radical feminist. It feels like we are expected to be at odds and in competition with each other, and I think we have to learn how to mature, and how to relate to each other.

It's a very interesting question.

I think previous posters are right about a form of "selection bias": you see the bits of behaviour which conform to your preconceived ideas and don't even register the bits that contradict it. So because popular culture would have us believe that women are back-stabbing bitches (Heathers, Mean Girls, Fatal Attraction, Working Girl, etc. etc.), and we swim around in this culture the whole time, that's what we see (unless we make a conscious effort to look more carefully). Though, again as mentioned above, in reality for every mean girl bitch, there's probably at least half a dozen examples of women being supportive of one another.

Another thing which a number of writers have pointed out (Dworkin's Right Wing Women springs to mind) is that within a patriarchy, playing by the rules may get you an easier life than bucking the rules, so upholding patriarchy can be a shrewd tactical move on an individual level. And part of upholding the patriarchy can involve reinforcing its rules and policing other women's behaviour.

So, if you don't have any overwhelming motivation to push against sex stereotypes, it may well be easier to opt for a quiet life. But no-one likes to admit that's what they're doing so when people explain their behaviour, they tend to stress individual choices rather than social pressure. ("I just like shaving because I feel cleaner...", "Well when the kids came along, given the horrendous cost of childcare, it made sense for one of us to stay at home, and I happened to be earning less...", "Well, I like a clean house and meals cooked from scratch and he isn't bothered and would happily live in a tip and eat takeaways every night, so I guess I do more of the housework because I care more...") But the thing is, once you've made that decision, you become invested in persuading yourself that it's the best one, not just for you, but for other people. (Possibly because there's a nagging feeling that shaving's a chore, and you're bored witless playing "wind the bobbin up" yet again, not to mention feeling a bit nervous about your loss of earning potential, and no matter how hard you try there's this undercurrent of "it's not fucking fair that I have to clean his skidmarks off the toilet yet again...") So, to handle the cognitive dissonance you start to police other people's behaviour too.

So, to handle the cognitive dissonance you start to police other people's behaviour too.

Yes, that's very interesting -- that if you aren't happy with your own lot you might try to justify it by insisting other women suffer as well.

So, to handle the cognitive dissonance you start to police other people's behaviour too.

Or judge them, find them wanting and thereby reinforce the importance of it all. And it makes people redouble their efforts, pushing up everyone's personal investment in the whole thing.

Awful when you think about it.

Great post, pricklyball

I have a bad feeling I will be out of my depth here soon! - not at all topiarytop, it's an interesting question!

I think there's also a measure of sunk costs and the "backfire effect". So sunk costs is: the more you invest in something, the more tenaciously you're going to stick with it, no matter the evidence telling you that it's not right for you. Like an unsupportive marriage, for example.

And the backfire effect (worth a google, there's a great Oatmeal cartoon on it), is that when people tell you things that challenge your view of the world on a topic that you hold dear, it actually makes your brain lock down into a defensive mode to try to make the new information go away, because it doesn't fit. Your brain sticks its fingers in its ears, goes "la la la", and you get cross because it's not a comfortable place. I think a lot of feminism does this to people's view of the world - when you start to think about why women police other people's behaviour, and why you cling so tenaciously to the choices you make, it sets all sorts of cognitive alarms off in your head, and that can be quite distressing.

Not sure if that's on topic or not, it's early and my coffee hasn't kicked in yet

The Oatmeal

Compliance comes into much of it. When you are part of a social system and see those who adhere to the social system avoid controversy/criticism and get praised/rewarded for their behaviour, you adopt those behaviours in order to be seen as normal. You then expect others around you to be normal too so that your life views are confirmed.

Unfortunately for women our conformity entrenches our own oppression but at least we feel "normal". Likewise it is normal for a man to pent up all his emotions until they are released in an eruption of physical violence or sexual aggression and other examples.

Why is it mostly females who perform FGM? Why do women support other women "choosing" sex-work? Why is it some MILs insist the wife does all the domestic labour? Why do (usually only young) women body shame other women? No one likes their entire world view to be challenged.

Also the women doing the pushing probably believe they are doing other women a massive favour with their suggestions and actions, helping them to fit in better, more likely to get a good husband, be more popular etc and have the best intentions at heart.

I think it's only feminists that have the stomach to challenge social order because you don't half receive a knock back...

Two standard statements on any of those threads are that women are their own worst enemy and that feminism is all about choice.

When actually no. The patriarchy is women's worst enemy. And making a choice that potentially harms women is not feminism in action.

I know what you mean too. Just recently had a baby and I have felt the most judged overall by women and sadly some are my family members and mil. Just comments that make you feel like you are doing a shit job as a first time mum.

I wonder are we more competitive that goes back to years ago when we had to survive and find a mate.

As a new mum I tried breastfeeding and it didn't work so I expressed and topped up and I didn't belong in any camp or any group. I felt judged from both sides.

I think sometimes we project our own crap onto each other based on our own insecurities or past experiences.

I do try as a manager in work to mentor any female interns and staff as I worked for some amazing women who really helped me.

I do try as a manager in work to mentor any female interns and staff as I worked for some amazing women who really helped me.

I think this is great and will make a real difference to those you mentor. Women looking out for other women is vital I think. Congratulations on your baby as well, I hope it's all going well!

SophoclesTheFox

That's an excellent link. The oatmeal. It's probably something that is becoming more prevalent due to social media. Ideas, citations, evidence it's all there at the touch of a button.

You can see it play out in real life. Right here on mumsnet. Dissenting voices on a thread will ebb and flow, often rising to aggression or lowering to agreement.

Frequenrly just by the way people post, rather than what they actually say.

The threads that fill up the fastest are often the ones where there is a bunfight. High levels of dissent are somehow compelling to both read and to participate in. Entrenched opinions just harden to granite.

I, certainly, have learnt that the most persuasive arguments are those where you acknowledge and affirm the person's belief, largely because it is coming from a good place, and then offer them an alternative.

Most people have good intentions. Acknowledging that (and all the effort it requires), sort of allows them to put that belief 'on hold', protected for the duration of the conversation, whilst you make your argument.

I suppose it's the opposite of an ad hominem. Validating the person, whilst disagreeing with their viewpoint can take the sting out of it.

I agree with a lot of what's been said.

Remember that 100 years ago, if you were a woman, you couldn't vote. Think about the impact that alone would have on your life - to have the total inability to participate in any way in the running of your country. On top of that women had very little access to education, no right to own property, no right to custody of their own children, no right to participate in business, sport, commerce, law, etc etc. Pretty much the only way for an ordinary woman to participate in the adult world was to get married - as a married woman she at least had some meagre status. It was imperative in that situation that women made themselves marriageable by following the very strict rules set out for women - it would be unthinkable to sit by while your sister or daughter or your niece 'ruined her reputation' by being 'fast' or opinionated or masculine. You had to play by the rules or face the consequences.

Things have changed very very slowly since then. Some things have only changed in the last 50 years. In the 1960s and 70s, when many of our mothers were teens, finding out you were pregnant while you were unmarried was a total disaster. Even in the 1980s being a single mother was frowned upon. Rape in marriage only became illegal in 1991.

It takes a long time to climb out of that sort of mindfucking oppression. So it shouldn't be surprising that women police other women - there is legitimate fear there, fear born from generations and generations of being utterly powerless. I agree that there's also the need to preserve your world view at play. My MIL had the genuine belief that women somehow didn't need sleep once a baby was born, thus making them 'naturally' the ones who should do all the night feeds. I know she holds that ridiculous belief because otherwise she'd have to admit that FIL is a lazy misogynistic arsewipe who simply couldn't be bothered to help her and that her suffering was for nothing.

As an aside I feel like MIL and my own DM react badly to, for example, DH doing his fair share, because it makes them angry on some level to see that it wasn't necessary for their lives to be so hard and that all the fairytales they told themselves about their 'role' were utter nonsense. I think it must be devastating to look back on your life and realise a lot of the difficulty you experienced was entirely unnecessary and inflicted on you by someone who claimed to love you. Now both in their 60s they both are sick to death of their husbands but neither will divorce because it's too late - they can't bring themselves to make a change. It's easier to sit and snipe and say I have it wrong.