Robert Webb: ally or grandstander?

[arousingcheer]

I'm not claiming to support/refute his views as I haven't read the book (just some excerpts). But my spidey senses are tingling. I admit I'm suspicious when everyone genuflects when a fella says something along the lines of 'Hey chaps, let's scratch the surface of this patriarchy gig and you'll see it's not all it's cracked up to be!' (Oh, you mean the patriarchy hurts everyone? Alert the authorities!)

My first thought was that it was a bit of grandstanding/exceptionalism to write your memoir centred around the concept of performative masculinity as though you have discovered it. There is a little bit of that thing where a bloke thinks he's being top-notch by saying 'Look how comfortable I am in my sexuality!' And I'm having trouble expressing why I rolled my eyes when he writes about what a badass his wife was in labour and using power tools. Like, is that not reductive and verging on biological essentialism in itself? And in a tiresomely predictable way (which may not reflect at all on RW himself) it has provoked a lot of chin-stroking about things women have been saying for ages, but, yk, it needed to be said by a man for anyone to hear it.

Is he being the kind of ally who amplifies the voices of those who stood up and said this stuff before he did, who taught him what he knows? Or is he bashfully shielding his eyes from the spotlight and allowing himself to be congratulated on how right-on he is?

Sad to say I feel a tiny bit the same way about Hannibal Buress making his name off the Bill Cosby rape allegations. No one heard it until he said it and didn't his career take off because of it. It has its own section on his Wiki page: 'The audience appeared to respond to Buress's accusation as an incredulous joke before he encouraged everyone to "Google 'Bill Cosby rape'" when they got home.' I sort of love him so I wouldn't like to think it was a calculated career move... but was it?

paq lol, I've started the thread to see if I will read the book!

I have the overwhelming urge for smileys but fear I will look passive-aggressive. I'm not though, I read this board a lot for the solidarity! An entirely earnest for you all.

I'm in the process of reading the book and I'm enjoying it. It's funny and sad and shocking. I didn't know much about RW before and I haven't seen or heard much of the noise around the book, so I'm not reading it with any particular expectations.

If anything, having a daughter made me a better feminist. Not that I deliberately or consciously oppressed other women, but I was more resigned to the shit we have to put up with. Now I have a very specific reason to fight back.

"Apart from anything else, if they don't, then they're ceding the space to men who will blame those negative consequences on feminism/"the wrong kind of women"

This articulates my thoughts on this sort of issue very well: It might not be fair that one kind of person gets a better platform than another, but whilst they do have it they may as well use it to stand up for those who don't have that platform. Because shutting up and "getting out of the way" normally just results in someone equally/more privileged getting the platform instead.

I've just finished the book having bought it after hearing about extract on the radio. I really enjoyed it - funny and moving plus I could really relate to not revising for a levels! It made me really like him and want to find out more/watch his comedy. I also now want to read David Mitchell's equivalent book!

As far as the gender/feminism aspect I found his take on it interesting and heartwarming. I think he realises that he's not saying anything earth shatteringly original - it's clearly something he feels strongly about though and wants to share his opinions and ideas. He seems fully aware of how he's been a massive twat at various times in his life and seems at least to be trying to be less of one which is all any of us can do

I just listened to the audio book. It's very good. I agree with the others who have read it. It made me cry, and laugh.

The audiobook also ends with an extra feature of him having a conversation with his wife and a gay friend about some of the issues in the book. Very nice to hear from his wife, she sounds cool!

Op, you should definitely read it. (Or listen to the audio book of Webb reading it.) I didn't find any issue with it.

I'm reading the book at the moment - he points his readers to writing by women pointing out they know more than him. He doesn't refer to himself as a feminist, but does point out that feminists have the right idea.

I genuinely don't get the impression he's after ally cookies, and the book is really aimed far more at male readers, pointing out to them that performing masculinity is harmful. So from that point of view I don't think he's talking over women/feminists, he's doing something we need more men to do, he's talking to other men.

I loved the book and found that he strikes the right tone to actually get people (men) thinking about gender roles and patriarchal conditioning. I listened to the audio book narrated by him and laughed a lot and cried, parts of it are very moving.

He is pretty self aware and points out that he has behaved badly in the past while thinking he was adverse to toxic masculinity due to his troubled relationship with his own father. It's a book that's timely and raises a lot of important points while not being smug or condescending. He writes in a fairly self deprecating way, his humour is wry and I hope it causes other men to realise how they can be allies and reject bullshit gender roles.

His wife sounds great, she seems to be a significant influence in his life and I suspect takes no shit. 😄

Have persuaded DH to get it on Audible as well, he's a huge fan of RW and while we have a fairly equal relationship I think that the book will open his eyes to the areas of toxic masculinity that he often doesn't see unless they are pointed out to him.

Haven't read it yet but I plan to. I agree with deyto's post saying that the book is probably more likely a good thing than not. There is a need for accessible discussion about how toxic masculinity is bad for men as well as women to move things forward.

OP, I don't really get what your issue is with the way it's been talked about. You seem to be thinking, but not quite saying, that it's getting more attention because its author is a celebrity than would otherwise be the case. I'm sure that's true but let's take the benefits of that where we can. I also don't see that he is making special claims for the uniqueness of his own insight, just that given his fame, he has the platform to publicise that insight. If it's being breathlessly talked about as 'ooh, look, a man has something to say!' I'm not sure Webb should be personally held responsible for that.

I also listened to the audio book. I'd say from the extra feature with his wife and gay male friend, at the end especially, he veered dangerously in to "terf" territory . His wife sounds fab and I can't help but wonder if she's here ((waves)).

He mentions G Greer, gender repeatedly, and how shit men can be. I think it would be very well received here. But the book isn't for you, it's not for any of us really. It's for men. He talking to men, he's not at any point mansplaining feminism, and in fact says he feels weird to use the term feminist, being a man, as he isn't sure it's ok for men who don't fully get it to use it.

I think there should have been a second title called

"Right on lefty men and other twats that get it wrong"

His wife Abigail Burdess actually has a pop about right on male comics who use their feminism to get laid, and refers to herself as a furious strident feminist. I'd like to take her for a pint

Wheres He quotes Cordelia Fine and references Greer, I have high hopes.

He not so subtly terfs all over the book I'm annoyed because if a female equivalent to him did the same she'd be getting death threats already. But I suppose that's why we need men to speak up

If you follow Robert on twitter you can see that he has now gone full terf! Good for him.

I don't care if he is grandstanding if he takes a gender critical line about transing children. That will make people at least think about it.

He has pulled back from full terf and tweeted an article by Juno the transwoman who thinks gay men are actually women on the inside. Oh well, he is still gender critical, just ties himself in knots when faced with the trans juggernaught of " You are literally erasing me with your thoughts!!!!!"

I loved the book. I've also been watching twitter today with interest. He's trying to make peace with Juno Dawson but he hasn't taken back any of his gender critical posts

Bet he had no idea of the tsunami of shit that will be rained upon him. But nothing like Jenni Murray received of course

The Robert Webb thread in Chat is on the Mumsnet 'trending' posts at the top right of the page. Is this the first time they've let a post on this subject feature in the trending posts?

I like him, and welcome any sensible voices in this nonsensical debate.

I've been very impressed with him so far. He seems to be interested in talking to people, not grandstanding.

I've just been on the thread about this in Chat. Great thread, but it has really brought home to me how people only really listen when a man speaks. I could weep!

I now love Robert Webb and his wife.
Because he is a bloke and a good comedian people will listen in a way that jenni Murray and germaine Greer won't be

Totally anecdotal evidence but I have the impression that men with daughters are more alive to sexism. Heard good things about the book elsewhere and in the basis of this thread I am going to buy it!

Like Hemlock and Morgaine, I was under the impression this book was primarily aimed at other men ? Tbh I wasn't planning to read it for that reason, I don't need his help to hone my feminism but if it makes some men stop and think and learn to see things they haven't been able to see previously then that can only be a good thing in my view.

I think there's a term we haven't yet invented that describes where he fits in.

Since I became the mother of a boy (from a family full of girls/ women bar the father) I've noticed how many of the issues feminists discuss also impact young boys in a slightly parallel way - and this is the position that RW comes from.

It's especially noticeable in the 'gender debate' as gender stereotyping is terrible for BOTH boys and girls, but I honestly feel it's harder for a young boy to be into 'girl' stereotypical things than girls into 'boy' stereotypical things. And gender stereotyping is damaging for boys long term - they learn to be tough, bury emotions, extremely competitive but sadly also violent and potentially also later on patriarchal - which is bad for women. This is what he's written about. He sees how his upbringing fits into the patriarchy, into sexism, how it was damaging to him and then potentially damaging to women.

I sort of wish there was a word that links this to feminism - a bit like a side car. Or perhaps it is feminism but about the bigger picture.

Gah, semantics.