Women in STEM - who is at fault?

[EBearhug]

I was reading Computer Weekly's Focus paper on Men for women in tech.

It says it mentions parents heavily, which it does - and this is no bad thing, because I do think parents have quite some influence on what their children may decide to do for a career - I know quite a few people who went into the same or similar careers as their parents, and we all know of acting dynasties and so on. (And I suspect that me ending up in IT has quite a bit to do with it being something my parents knew nothing about.)

However...

"Industry experts suggest that dads rarely stand in the way of their daughters pursuing careers in science, technology, engineering and mathematics (Stem) as they want to believe their daughters can go on to achieve any desired career." (p5)

"But mothers are often cited as one of the reasons girls choose not to go into technology, as they often dissuade their daughters from pursuing a job in the technology industry, fearing it would not suit them." (p15)

So yay, mothers to blame again. But - do women have a clearer idea of how hostile an environment it can be? I think a lot of men just don't see any sexism. My manager has said there is no sexism, in response to me giving examples of minor sexist things which happen every day. I've had a few colleagues over the years who've outright said that they don't think that women can think logically or always react emotionally (I usually respond with examples of men who always react emotionally.) Plus of course, those who respond to surveys and give interviews to CW on diversity are probably pretty much self-selecting and are more likely to be the type who do recognise the issues and are aware of the various barriers.

I've spoken to male colleagues (most of my colleagues are male - I work as a unix sys admin,) about why they think there are so few women in IT - mostly, the response has been along the lines of, "well, it's IT, women don't want to do it." They don't see the problem, and they think it's a choice that's freely made. They've never been asked to think about why women make that choice, or if it's even a truly free choice - nor about how they might contribute to reasons why women choose not to enter tech careers.

I am all for getting more men involved in diversity - too often it's all about women in tech (or wider STEM) and the majority of men, who create the culture we work in simply by being the majority, aren't involved at all. I'm just feeling uncomfortable about it implying (or maybe I'm just being paranoid and inferring things which aren't there,) that men never stand in the way of girls entering IT, but women do.

And then I worry about whether I am doing enough to promote STEM; I know I do sometimes have doubts about it, because of the constant low-level sexism. I've never actively suggested anyone shouldn't suggest it, but equally, I have stepped back a bit from actively promoting it. I bet none of my male colleagues has the slightest worry about this...

I wondered what others thought.

I don't get how scientists aren't creative.

The whole basis of a phd is you are doing work that hasnt been done before, and are thinking of ways to take your work into completely unknown territory.

You have to create your hypothesis, then create ways to defend it.

Hence the title doctor of philosophy.

To me, thinking of a new plan and ways to execute it is not that much different to an artist planning their new painting, or a chen a new menu. In fact i've heard lab science compared to cooking many times, it's just on a much smaller scale :)

In fact i've heard lab science compared to cooking many times, it's just on a much smaller scale :)

Whereas chem eng...

I am not sure that emphasising creativity of science and technology would encourage girls to think positively about careers in them.
I was surprised that the drawings that biologists did of plants and animals were so detailed and creative, especially the efforts of people like The Comte de Buffon who produced beautiful images of birds that they had never seen, based on descriptions sent back to them.
Personally, I may even have been put off by it, as I am not very creative. I do speak several languages though I would definitely have avoided anything sparkly
Perhaps more female role models, less crap about hard subjects, or boys subjects in school?

@manclife I think the most important contributions have to come from parents. We can talk to school kids and run engineering challenges till we are blue in the face; but with the best will in the world we are complete strangers to the kids. Any good work we do can so easily be undone by years of conscious and unconsious bias fed to children by their parents over years and years.

I hope scarys post was tongue in cheek, but there have been other posts on this thread that show some people don't think STEM is for girls for a variety of reasons, not always based in reality. I think education of STEM careers may need to focus on parents as much as the kids.

Another issue is that STEM is a ridiculously broad term. My role is as far removed from a research scientists as it is from an accountants. I think we have to get much much better at showing the huge range of careers that come under that umbrella.

But the stem-able girls who aren't bothered by 'creativity' are likely to be onside anyway - I'm thinking about widening the appeal. Absolutely not 'glittery and sparkly' though (theres more than enough makeup and shampoo ads covering that niche). My observation of girls and young women is that the more real something is, the more they'll engage. Not so keen about playing with lego or software, but get them making something more purposeful...

Interesting thread. I have only anecotal info to add though. My father tried to encourage me in maths and science. My mother actively discouraged me from even doing chemistry (which I liked) at GCSE because it was 'too difficult' and used to constantly tell me how much she hated maths at school. My primary school teacher (well-meaningly, I'm sure) used me as an assistant teacher to help with the littler ones because I was very able and biddable. I decided by age 12 to become a teacher (languages) and have been ine for 20 years. It's only recently that I've realised how much my career choice was shaped by these things (these women, in fact). I had always believed that my preference for arts subjects and teaching were inherent and based on my innate abilities. I don't think that any more, and have been careful not to influence my daughter's preferences in this way. She loves I.T. and I hope she doesn't get turned against it. She tells me that there are currently only girls in her school lunch time computing club, which is interesting!

Apologies - that was long (and lacking in paragraphs).

Bit of a caricature there scaryclown! I work in IT and my colleagues are just normal people, not out and out geeks!
On a serious note, I have often thought that one of the reasons women aren't drawn towards IT is the 'geek' image. The industry has an image problem in that people think it is populated by socially inept smelly men, which isn't true in my experience.

I worked with an it guy who literally forgot how to speak.

Which isn't helped by the likes of the big bang theory.

People honestly think that's what my work environment is like, and that we're all on the asd spectrum. Some are, obviously, but i'd say no more so than any other workplace.

They are either suprised that i am "normal", or assume that me not talking to them is my lack of social skills, not because they are small minded idiots who have made assumptions about my "geek" status based on my profession and a tv show.

I worked with an it guy who literally forgot how to speak.

See my post above. Chances are if i don't speak to you it's because you come out with idiotic crap about "it guys", not because i've forgotton how to speak...

Errolthedragon
A comment about the below...

My observation of girls and young women is that the more real something is, the more they'll engage. Not so keen about playing with lego or software, but get them making something more purposeful..

I would have thought that type of thinking would actually encourage girls towards stem, engineering in particular. To me, engineering is always represented by actually making something, in that something tangible in the world will change because of work that you do, and which is why I followed a career in engineering and not accountancy.

As to the problem at hand....I don't even know where to start. I will say that the longer I'm in engineering, the more I realise the deck is stacked against me, despite working for an excellent company and mostly excellent colleagues of both sexes.

I mean actually. Would mumble but make no discernable words. An email from him was erudite and witty, but he would forget how to communicate in RL.

It's the future I tell you!

I don't know why when people say STEM they automatically think of a bloke liked in a basement.

I'm out in the fresh air a lot and my job requires a lot of communication and interpersonal skills. On a typical day I will be dealing with:

A) a glaswegian ganger called Dave who will have ordered the wrong fucking concrete. Again. And unless he gets it sorted by 12 our programme will be fucked.

B) advising a land owner who measures ownership in sq km (Because hectares just aren't big enough) how to get best value from his land when he meets with a major developer next week. Write email to communicate the same.

C) multidisciplinary meeting with local authority acting as client and technical approver on a project to defend design decisions and cost. (It's Dave's fault - see A)

D) writing a technical report for review by a statutory undertaker. One of whose team litteraly wrote the regulatory standards.

E) explaining said report to the client so they can understand it.

Plus many many others.

If I didn't have good communication skills I would suck at my job.

There are people who are probably on the spectrum, I'm sure I have met more than a few, but they aren't all like that. We are all pretty normal!

Thank so for the feedback, I'm a self confessed geek (though not the the heady heights of some posting here ) and I'm trying to encourage my 7 year old DD to get into a broader range of activities. I'm already getting her to help with DIY (more building) and basic computing which she loves but for love nor money does she like science or maths! Grrr

I don't even know where to start. I will say that the longer I'm in engineering, the more I realise the deck is stacked against me, despite working for an excellent company and mostly excellent colleagues of both sexes.

Yes, this.

I think image is a massive issue. Programmes like the IT Crowd and TBBT don't help, and there's rarely a counter-balance of soaps or other drama with normal woman in normal IT job or similar. There are female forensics people and doctors and so on, particularly in murder dramas, but where are the people living in Ambridge or Albert Square or Weatherfield and going off to write java or something?

I think that a lot of people have a narrow idea of the sheer range of jobs in STEM in general, but IT in particular. It's not just programming or systems admin. I was at one tech for teens event last year, talking to a very intelligent 15 year old, who knew she wanted to do some sort of science, but not IT, because that's boring. And if your idea of IT is Excel and Powerpoint, then yes, it may well seem boring (though a good spreadsheet is a marvel.) In fact, whatever she ends up doing in science, she will probably end up doing some tech as part of that anyway. And by the time today's 15 year olds graduate, there will probably be technology roles which don't even exist currently.

Pretty much all STEM roles need good communication skills. There's no point being able to write perfect programs if no one's ever going to use them. A lot of programming is about listening to what is required (or desired - not always the same thing!) You don't get funding just because something seems like it would be fun (though often it can be that as well.) Speaking and writing are absolutely key. Creativity is also key in the process - not just creative problem solving, but in the more traditional understanding of art 'n' stuff - designing front-end user interfaces and so on. And you need to talk to colleagues in your own department, in related departments, in related fields, ,to share ideas, best practice, problems. Some days, you won't get to do any "proper" work, because you'll spend most of it in meetings, talking to people.

There's no single solution - what stops one child going into STEM won't be the same reason as stops another. Some will go into it for the money or the flexible hours, others because they really enjoy the tech, or the problem solving, or helping people do things better.

I think in the UK, our education specialises far too early, but that is clearly only a minor factor, because numbers of women in tech is also an issue in some countries which don't limit people to 3 subjects before they're 18. I think it should be part of the curriculum (and I hope that curriculum changes a couple of years ago will have more effect here once we've had enough time for children to work through the schools.) Harvey Mudd College in the USA made programming a compulsory module for all first years, and that made a big difference to the numbers of women majoring in CS on graduation.

And getting rid of all these gendered expectations - it is mostly a cultural issue, which not all countries experience.

(I was going to say more, but I decided I should mow the lawn before it rains, and while I was doing that, I forgot what else it was...)

Our DD is 7 and is determined to become a space scientist. Her hero is Maggie Aderin-Pocock. DH works in a STEM at a technology company and has introduced her to a few of his female colleagues. His company also holds STEM family days which she has enjoyed. We have got her back as regards her ambitions and know that she is going to face a shit load of obstacles in her way as she gets older, by building her confidence we're hoping she won't waver from her goals. DH is instilling his love of physics into DD and I've introduced her to coding (my interest). Her DGrandad was an aeronautical engineer and has shared with her what he used to do for various military and space programmes.

I know it's going to get harder for her as she gets older and that's just wrong. I only hope we are up to challenge to guide her through the sexist storm on the horizon.

The geek image is certainly misleading. There are a handful but most of the people I work with aren't even slightly geeky. The extent of my geekiness is a love for Doctor Who. One of my colleagues doesn't even have a pc at home.

I'm trying to encourage my 7 year old DD to get into a broader range of activities. I'm already getting her to help with DIY (more building) and basic computing which she loves but for love nor money does she like science or maths! Grrr

A 'broad range of activities' when they're young is the best approach for children of both sexes, for sure. Both to give them some skills - a bit of art, a bit of computing, a bit of music, a bit of DIY etc - and to allow them to find what floats their boat (sports too if you can, the boats are literal for my DD). But then we have to accept that they're not necessarily going to make the same choices we might ... no need to grr, if she really doesn't like science and maths, so be it - she won't be in the position of some of the posters on this thread who were let down in various ways and never got a proper chance.

@Manclife & @ErrolTheDragon

All 3!

Schools need to-
Get children interested in real science and tech at a young age- not just playing with Lego (which my classes all seem to love) but designing, building, testing for a real purpose.

STEM industry need to-
Show those children (particularly early secondary age) what is out there. What amazing, interesting and challenging things can they do if they get into STEM. What difference could they make in the future? How can they use their creativity to solve problems that face them and their families in the future?

Parents - well...
Culture change needed in lots of cases I think. Break down the assumptions about science being hard and mums being bad at maths, about tech being for unsociable geeky kids, about suitability for certain jobs being based on gender. Not a quick fix and easier in some types of families and areas than others.

Errol if you feel you may be able to inspire or influence young people please contact your local schools. If they're anything like ours they will bite your hand off to have an expert talk with the children about their job/career/interests.

I know a couple of people who are now in some quite senior tech roles for big, well known brands & their careers weren't linear at all - there was no real clear pathway to tech that they would have seen early on in their career.

One ended up producing/working in film after showing some initial coding skills & the other ended up going down a PR/agency route before finding the right role for them in tech.

Some good friends have their own companies that are SEO/web tools & without the husband being so interested in coding/tech I doubt his wife would have made the connection between her interest in maths (she now has a pHd) & Ruby code. They have been together since teens so honed their knowledge together.

Its such a shame this matter women are more then capable of doing science and tech subjects I know one who is very good with IT and is well respected and if you ever see a program on the building of such as cross rail you'll sometimes see a young woman heading up a team of male construction workers !

And well done to them:-)

Crossrail does seem to be pretty good with engineers.

Crossrail does seem to be pretty good with engineers.

Yess, I often wonder what Mrs Brunel might have got up to around a 150 years after IKB put the GWR on the map?.