Minor gripe - but is it 2017 or what??

[SophoclesTheFox]

It's not the end of the world, but a small piece of sexism put a real crimp on my day today.

I was filling in a pre employment screening form, and was on the section for name & title. For context: I am married but didn't change my name. I selected the option "Ms", which is my preferred title. I was then required to fill in my "previous" name, along with the date I changed it, and the data flagged as incomplete without it, so I couldn't sumbit the form. I couldn't supply name change details, because I never changed my name. So I selected "Mrs" instead, which I will grudgingly accept if I'm not permitted Ms. Same thing: not possible to complete the form using Mrs without also supplying details of name change.

Finally I had to select "Miss", as that was the only option that didn't require details of my "maiden" name!!

What the hell? Obviously this form has been designed by the same team that brought you the 1935 Debrett's Book of Etiquette, where "Ms" signifies that you're divorced and married women always change their name.

I had to send the screening company an email to explain, because I'm scared this will flag as an anomaly on their system, and I fail the screening because it looks like I'm hiding something! Really, really maddening. And I know it's first world problems, but I have enough on my plate right now and I could just have done without this nonsense.

It is a problem men in the first world don't have, though.

You're justified in being annoyed.

Previous Name: NoPreviousName
Date of name change: your dob

It's ridiculous. Given men (and even boys) are only referred to as "Mr" there's no reason there should be any title other than "Ms" for women (obviously not including "Dr" etc). Even the term "maiden name" is something I find quite grating and sexist. I hope I'll refuse any title other than "Ms" in future though am aware this might be easier said than done, which is exasperating in itself.

Well, yes, I guess I could have, carrots, but I don't know to what extent the system is automated, and a search for Sophocles NoPreviousName could have auto-triggered with no human intervention, and it would flag up as a problem against me because she doesn't exist!

I get that they're trying to check for previous names so they can fully search my history, but why load that with assumptions about the title that goes with that??

Couldn't you use your name for both current and previous name and, as a PP said, use your d.o.b. for the date of change.

It's all submitted now, so too late! That possibly might have worked, LadyB.

But it's still a rubbish form.

Though, thinking about it, wouldn't I have still had to email them to explain why I am filling in a part of the form with a name change I didn't make? Wouldn't they just look at it (if they look at it) and say - er, what?

If it is relevant to know if the applicant at any time had a different name it should ask that queastion for all applicants.

Men do occasionally change their names. Not often probably but I have clients who changed their name back to the original spelling of a very famous great- grandparent and another who, as a condition of inheriting, was obliged to change to the name of the deceased relative.

Men do occasionally change their names.

They do, and I've read on a couple of threads on this board a few posters whose husbands have changed their surnames to theirs upon marriage. Of course it's a small number but it does happen, as well as those who may change their names for other reasons as you mention.

This is another example of everyday sexism, not only refusing to allow a woman to use the title "Ms" (which as I said in my opinion should be the default for women anyway and which many favour) unless also giving a "previous name" and so forth whilst a man would of course simply have to select "Mr". It's ridiculous and shows again the sexism in something as basic as titles.

You're right, nolove - marital status should be irrelevant for everyone, and it's just maddening to see that in 2017, I've just been required to make disclosures about my marital status that a man wouldn't have to.

Just ask everyone if they've ever changed their name and if we must have them, let everyone pick whatever title they want. Job done.

Indeed Sophocles. Marital status should be irrelevant and a woman's shouldn't be denoted by her title seeing as men's aren't - and seeing as increasing numbers of women don't change surnames and go by "Ms". There's no need for the sexist way this form has been created.

It's maddening indeed. I once had a similar problem booking travel where I tried to put myself as lead person, but whenever I entered our respective sexes into the booking it put my partner as the lead person. This was infuriating because when card details were asked for it was his and not mine - it reverted to lead person. In the end I went as Mr and him Ms, which meant we had to explain what had happened because passports were checked and sex (well, gender as they would have it) was important in that context. This was nominally in the UK as well.

What's most annoying about this is it's incredibly easy to solve. Just tweak a bit of code. Not like solving the gender pay gap problem.
When I lived in Canada, a woman's birth name was the default on all official documents. This was 15 years ago.

Urgh, that's infuriating yetanother! I mean, just why?

I can't honestly believe that it wasn't actually harder to write the code the sexist way, deydo. It would surely have been easier not to make any link between the title field and the previous name field - I mean, it had to have been a conscious choice that someone made.

It does link in to an actual larger, much more concrete worry, which is that the lack of diversity in tech roles mean that software is being produced that has sexist and racist assumptions built into it - like the AI that turns out to be racist, or the algorithms that mean women job searching don't get to see higher paying roles. That stuff is really serious.

And on keeping names, I live in France where women retain their nom de jeune fille (maiden name) as their legal name throughout their lives. So all your interaction with officialdom is done in that name, though women generally use their married name socially (This has also caused me difficulty as the bank randomly changed all my accounts to my husband's name as they assumed my actual name wasn't the one I used!) Most forms just give the option of Mme or M. now, which is good.

If this is for your new job, I'd speak to HR about it when you're in post.

Your right however, I would have done my surname twice or put N/a. Depending on ehat would have worked. Definitely bring it up as Jiggly said

It is for my new job. I don't know when or if it might be appropriate to bring up - it's done by an external company to the one I'll be working for...but I do think they need to know.

YABU to think that it being 2017 is a barrier to this kind of stuff. We are going backwards, I'm sure of it.

It does link in to an actual larger, much more concrete worry, which is that the lack of diversity in tech roles mean that software is being produced that has sexist and racist assumptions built into it - like the AI that turns out to be racist, or the algorithms that mean women job searching don't get to see higher paying roles. That stuff is really serious.

No, it's absolutely fine. My manager (IT role) says there's no sexism, and I'm over-sensitive.

I asked about our customer forms at work and whether they insist on using titles and no one really knew, but they're sure it's fine. I've filled in more than enough online forms in my time to asume it probably isn't, but I have no idea where the development team(s) for it are based and don't have direct access to the forms themselves, so have to go with, "it's not my job." Except anyone should be allowed to ask questions like that - which they are - and the feedback go to the relevant teams - which it doesn't, because it's too much effort to find out...

My manager (IT role) says there's no sexism, and I'm over-sensitive.

Silly us! Fretting over nothing, eh

One solution could be to put Miss Sophocles in the previous name box, and Ms Sophocles for your current name. That's assuming you used Miss when you were younger. Very annoying though, and just one more thing that women have to think about and men don't.

No, it's absolutely fine. My manager (IT role) says there's no sexism, and I'm over-sensitive

Or, it's all first world problems experienced by middle-class feminists, tee hee.

surely all that the form needs to ask (for everyone) is current name and title / any previous names and titles / date of change of name or title if applicable?

Olennas and plenty of forms, online and paper do exacty that, so it's not difficult.