Liberalism and trans

[FurryGiraffe]

This. This is it, in a nutshell:
transwidow.wordpress.com/2017/09/03/liberal-values-dont-apply/

Trans children are a separate issue from trans adults.

No, they're not.

Transadults need transkids to prove that they were "born that way" and that it's not just a sad sexual fetish.

Yes I too disagree. It's all part of the same ideology. It's just that people can see it for what it is when it comes to children. People are far more awake to gender stereotyping in children, at the moment.

Because all kids naturally gravitate to all toys. It is society that genders them. Parents have personal experience of this. They can see it happening before their very eyes.

But then suddenly go off grid when exactly the same thing happens in adults.

Missy you need to take your expertise on Marxism off to the hairy woman thread in AIBU. It desperately needs some Marxist analysis about the corporate influence.

Looking to blame "the Left" or "the Right" for this new-trans ideology largely seems to be about highlighting things that fit in with pre-existing prejudices. It seems to be a good way of causing self-confusion and not being able to analyse correctly what's going on.

One thing that strikes me is how "trans" is sort of an unknown quantity for many and is packaged as being "the opposite of X" and then sold as "and you hate X don't you so it follows that trans is OK".

Even if it was right wing, and I don't think it is, the left perpetuates the issue by having to seem accepting of everything in an attempt not to seem bigoted.

The whole discussion is stupid. I am generally seen as left wing because I mostly argue against viewpoints regarded as conservative and am of the opinion that "free speech" does not mean "free to offend". So I am against conservatism and pro something that is generally regarded as key "SJW".

But at the same time the whole "pc" culture, or as you put it here "attempt not to seem bigoted" I think is complete nonsense. And yet I always shoe-boxed into the "SJW", "libtard", "leftie" category and immediately dismissed (or supported). There is no moderation, everything is so polarized and it's "us vs. them".

It's important to remember that the trans agenda fits well with the right's- d particularly the Christian right's- homophobia. So much better for your non gender conforming child to be trans than gay.
Because a trans person can be "fixed" and end up in an acceptable
heterosexual relationship.

It also is in accordance with 'traditional' beliefs about gender roles- and 'male' and female' brains. Anyone who argues against their pre-ordained role is just in the wrong body and needs to be fixed- not the whole idea about gender roles.

But what do I know? perhaps I am really a man.

Not just Christian right, any religious right Bertrand. Hence Iran's high levels of transwomen, for example.

But at the same time the whole "pc" culture, or as you put it here "attempt not to seem bigoted" I think is complete nonsense.

But it's not nonsense that part of the problem is an aversion to being perceived to be bigoted. There are many people out there who, even if they have doubts, are avoiding questioning the new-trans ideology because to be seen to do so could lose them friends and see them on the end of a kicking on social media.

In this debate someone from the "other side" will say sometimes something that's actually correct. We don't have to assume they must be wrong just because they're on the "wrong" side.

People misuse the word bigoted, which used to represent a complete and utter failure to listen and comprehend another position. Now it is just a slur to sling at someone you don't wish to engage with, the irony is usually lost on people who use it frequently.

I understand the trans position (which is a bit of a misnomer as there are plenty of trans people who find the anti-woman rhetoric abhorrent, but I use it for the sake of brevity), I'm just philosophically opposed to it.

I'm also mostly opposed to socialism/communism/Marxism, but I'd caution against making this as a stick to beat the left with, as plenty of centrists and even right wingers will go along with the trans ideology. Trying to make this a points scoring excercise across the left/right divide is an error.

Well exactly. It's not that no one understands, it's that they disagree.

I also agree that blaming the left or the right is a mistake. Because they are both culpable, for different reasons.

And yes, the use of the word bigot is like a talisman. People are petrified of being thought bigoted, even when they are nothing of the sort.

Except it's losing its power now. Precisely because it is being misused.

Being called a bigot just means you disagree with someone and your disagreement is the exact point where they have no further ammo.

Because it's not about getting a point across, it's about domination and control.

In fact I'm wondering whether trans people are more likely to be right wing (gender norms re-enforced, plus the erasure of homosexuality, driven by a white middle-class males), whereas trans supporters are more likely to be left wing. (Progressive, right on, aligned to LGB, minorities, and rights in general).

And maybe that's where the confusion lies.

Which would explain the extraordinary number of people who say they used to be allies, until they realised what was going on.

They were automatic political allies as, on the surface, it seems right to be so, until you drill down.

I suspect that there are an awful lot of trans allies who didn't really think about or understand the current TRA ideology.

I include most government ministers / others in power in this, by the way. I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theory approach, but in thinking about how TRA has gained traction so quickly, I think it must be a combination of people trying to do the right thing but without engaging their brain on the real life implications for women in particular, along with most people not wanting to be called "bigots" or "on the wrong side of history"

To be perfectly honest I am a bigot sometimes, I would say have been bigoted with regards to some aspects of feminism in the past, as well as some other things. It's almost impossible to not be on occasion. Any discussion on how society should be ordered is going to encompass economics, race, culture, religion, gender etc and any one of those topics you could spend your entire life in dedicated study of and still miss something.

For some it's easier to just to disengage or just pay lip service to what everyone else appears to be parroting. If you want to stand for something you have to be willing to roll your sleeves up and wade in. Anyone who does this unless they are a some sort of superhuman polymath is going to get something wrong, and be open to some sort of accusation of stupidity and/or bigotry.

The real threat to be avoided is complete and total devotion to any particular ideology. It's not all that relevant what that ideology is, it's the extremism that's dangerous. This is really clearly observable with religious extremism, but it's just as pernicious with political ideologies.

But it's not nonsense that part of the problem is an aversion to being perceived to be bigoted.

Badly phrased, you're right, it's not nonsense that that is part of the problem. I meant the attitude "better not say anything so I'm not seen as a bigot" is nonsense.

My question is "cui bono?" Who's making money? Who is influencing things behind the scenes? Because I just cannot understand how such a radical change in perception could have gained such traction so quickly. That's just not how things work.

Even if it was right wing, and I don't think it is, the left perpetuates the issue by having to seem accepting of everything in an attempt not to seem bigoted

Yes I agree. If this is a right wing conspiracy then The Sun, The Daily Mail and the Catholic church didn't get the message.

The right wing press are far more likely to report issues such as the trans rapist being put in a women's prison.

I can't remember the exact details but wasn't there a tremendous hue and cry about a bus the Catholic church had making the distinction between sex and gender?

There are plenty on the right who don't buy into this because it flies in the face of traditional family and marriage- see Ben Shapiro for example.

Has The Guardian even reported the story about the rapist being moved to a women's prison? I can't find it.

The same can be said of most 'liberal' causes. They're not liberal, they are anti-establishment or anti conservative. A true liberal will mind their own dn business asides from to tell others to do the same.

As far as I can tell LassWiTheDelicateAir the rapist in the women's prison has not been covered by the BBC or the Guardian. Maybe they'll sort themselves out tomorrow but I won't hold my breath.