How much do your children listen to or believe you when you talk about feminism?

[Splandy]

I worry that I have failed my eldest son and that the same will happen with my youngest. I never had an interest in feminism until I noticed the way people treated my son as a toddler. Feminism now entirely frames my view of the world. When my son was younger, it was easy to dismiss gender stereotypes. He believed what i said and was happy to do his own thing without referring to what he should be doing as a boy. As soon as he started nursery there was a change. The other childreb openly described things as being for boys or girls. I have no feminist friends and my family are extremely old fashioned in their views, so he only hears me ever challenging this stuff. My husband shares my views and doesn't believe in specific gender roles, but my son's dad is pretty misogynistic and an all round terrible person. He's now nine and doesn't really listen to anything I say. He has a bit of an attitude problem in general but specifically towards me. The rest of the world has won so he frequently talks about how the girls at school are all annoying/not funny and is full of bravado and toughness when he's with his group of friends. I have given up even mentioning things in passing because EVERYTHING I say to him is brushed off and seen as me telling him what to do - even totally benign conversation results in eye rolling and cries of 'I'm not DUMB you know'.

I really feel that I've let him down. I have this horrible feeling that he does now think of me as somebody less important because i'm female and a SAHM, so me talking about feminism wouls have no impact anyway.

How does this work with your children?

I've never tried to 'have a talk about' anything, as it always backfires or you find they see it as sermonising and aren't really listening.

So don't try. Work instead on establishing behavioural boundaries, so he is not constantly displaying acting up towards you, and learns to speak politely.

Have you asked him why he is talking about the girls at school so often? There might be an interesting answer there.

I have a 9 year old son and he does listen but I have an advantage- he has a twin sister.

It's easy to provoke outrage if I frame it in terms of direct impact to his sister e.g. Do you think she should earn less than you for the same job?

Having boy girl twins who are very close also means we have so far missed the "girls are annoying" "boys are annoying" phase with both of them simply because they both spend a lot of time with each other and each other's friends.

I hope this state of affairs carries on through the teenage years (fingers crossed)

Does he see a lot of his dad? It sounds as though he is overly influenced by him...

My eldest DS is very nearly 10 and so far still pretty much thinks I know everything (I know this will change :o ) and is also very upset by unfairness in life generally, so not like the description of your DS. However he has a slightly older sister (so a little bit of the same phenomena Penny describes with her DS and his twin DSis), no out and out "macho" adult males in his life, and a relatively easy personality aside from some major strops when he thinks something isn't fair...

We only talk about things as they come up, I agree big talks almost always come across as sermonising and incite rebellion and eye rolling - as soon as you catch yourself monologuing (I do it too, on random topics) you have to ask the kid a question to make it a two way conversation, or give a rest and move on :o

I don't think I've really sermonised about anything for a long time - I rarely even bring it up, but the few times I can't leave something unchallenged he reacts badly. It's not so much that he always talks about the girls, but the things he says when he does talk about them. He constantly talks about how he has faced injustice at school, teacher told him off for talking when he wasn't etc, but he's mostly not telling the truth so I can't just agree with him. When I question the way he talks about girls I think he sees it as another example of not being on his side and he becomes frustrated. I'm not telling him that a particular girl could never be annoying, but it's his overall view of girls which bothers me. He seems to view them as a bit incapable, silly and unimportant compared to him and all other boys. I have heard him laughing at them in the past in a way which seemed to be specifically that they were female and attempting something. I feel that if I don't challenge this he will go on to be just like the teenage boys I had to endure at high school. He sometimes says things about me and my husband. They're quite subtle things, I suppose. He seems to like to paint me as the unfun, boring, nagging one and him and my husband as the cool, fun ones. When I pull him up on this, he will often be jokey or snigger or attempt to make fun of me and looking at my husband as though he will back him up. I really don't like thy dynamic and can't believe that he's only nine and I have this level of attitude.

His dad is a truly awful person who treats my son like shit and he laps it up and idolises him. It's depressing and hard to deal with. I doubt his dad openly says things like 'I am a man so I am better than women' but it comes across in his behaviour and his hilarious jokes. His dad would insist he didn't really mean it and it's just a joke.

My son isn't old enough to take a step back and see the deeper meanings or to analyse comments the way I would - he obviously doesn't understand the world the way I do and takes things at face value. That's why I feel that I've let him down - I haven't combated this effectively enough so he has picked up on these messages.

The attitude is something I'm attempting to deal with separately but finding difficult. And I'm not sure how much of this is just normal ungrateful kid stuff!

You havent failed him, we cant control them. They are separate people and they are influenced by other people around them.
Teenagers are designed to eye roll at their parents. It's part of the process they go through of breaking free to leave the nest. That includes the stage of feeling misunderstood and alone, which doesnt help.
Other than your ex, what male role models does he admire, and who can you praise that he would accept? Try to find a way to use positive praise and reinforce wanted behaviours and attitudes. (I know how hard that is).

But he's not a teenager, he's only nine! He really looks up to his stepdad, which is good. We've talked a bit more about it lately and said that he needs to see my husband consistently backing me up so he can see that he respects me and that we are a team. We mostly do that anyway but are often very jokey with each other and I think he might be misunderstanding it. When he attempts to be 'jokey' it always seems that I'm the butt of the joke and it centres around me not being as good as them and then anything I say is mocked. My husband is going out of his way a bit more to ask why he shouldn't wash up or put the baby to bed when my son makes a comment about it. He is more accepting of it when it comes from his stepdad and doesn't see it as a sermon. Stepdad often questions why he says certain things about boys or girls and he seems to actually think about it rather than shut down.

I don't think he is as centred on boys vs girls as most children in his class so I suppose I haven't done it all wrong. He started gymnastics this year and is really good at it. He's one of the few boys there but hasn't been bothered by it and I know he has discussed gymnastics with some of the girls at school. He also tried out for the school dance club this year and got in. I was really proud His friends made a few comments about it but he didn't seem to know what they were on about. He might be the only boy in the group so I hope he doesn't give in to peer pressure and drop out.

I always wonder what I'm doing wrong when I see people on threads saying that they're discussing things with their children. I feel like I am just sitting here watching it happen and powerless to do anything about it.

Don't stop saying things. I remember my mum telling me stuff and I always eye-rolled but now 20-30 years later it all comes back at key moments and I get it. This was just stuff in general not specifically feminist but I would think the principle is the same.
The other thing is to see his step dad in action doing the laundry or the washing up and maybe do it together.

My ds was impressed by Malala - so if I can find a way to relate it back to her , he will stop to think. Otherwise anything more than a small sentence and he will eye-roll me over everything so I try to make it throw away remarks.

Can meet back in 20 years and see if it worked!!!

I think it's important to keep trying without doing so overly to the extent your son disengages. It sounds like there are some positives - he's not as obsessed with sexes being opposed to one another as some of his peers (though frustrating so many are at such a young age) and doesn't feel limited by stereotypes in terms of going for the dance club and ignoring comments about it, rightly seeing them as ridiculous. Sadly he's probably internalised some of the constant talk about the girls at his school; I suppose you could ask him why he thinks this and how he feels able to judge every girl, how he'd feel if someone thought he was "annoying" without even knowing him due to something he has no control over/what their friends told them. I'm far from qualified to be giving any advice on this though

I don't think my parents ever talked to me about sexism until I started bringing it up with them (not that I think it was right they didn't). In fact it's me who goes on about it in my household - though parents and one of my brothers now bring it up to me and tell me about things they've encountered/read etc on the subject. I've made them all more feminist I think

I think having twins with one of each sex is interesting in this respect Pennywhistle. The differences they'll probably start to encounter in how each is treated might help your son see misogyny more than he otherwise might - if your daughter starts being harassed on the street, ogled, subject to sexist comments, feels more pressure in terms of her appearance and so on. Of course I hope none of this ever happens to her though.