Explaining 'women in bikinis' to DD9

[LittleWingSoul]

DD is really enjoying the Diary of a Wimpy Kind book series but has just asked me why, when Roderick was being told off for owning a magazine with a picture of a woman posing on a car bonnet in a bikini, his mum told him to apologise to all women. I couldn't work out an age appropriate response! In all other aspects the books seems to be pretty age appropriate (and very funny too!)

Help with a response? Or do I continue with my 'you'll understand when you're older' stock response. We've had quite a few decent discussions about women's suffrage and gendered clothing recently but think probably the objectification of women for male sexual gratification is a bit beyond her...

'Diary of a wimpy kid', obvs

My first rough attempt at an explanation would be this: bikinis are mostly worn on the beach or at the pool because they are swimwear. But they also show the body which most men really like to look at. So if you see a woman in a bikini somewhere without water then she is just there for the boys to look at, and not because of how awesome or funny or brave she is.

Is that any good? Im trying to be a better feminist but am rubbish at explaining stuff.

God yeah I didn't even think of the conflict between sexy images of bikinis and women wearing swimwear on the beach! We're on holiday and we've all been living in our swimwear, and as we are quite remote I've had the added luxury of hanging around in just the bottom half all day.

Thanks red, I think that's a good start. It's the 'men wanting to look at women' thing though isn't it. By virtue of being 9 she's thankfully avoided the whole subject of the male gaze so far, I wonder if it's something I can avoid still or whether this would be a good starting point for those discussions.

I'd go with "He was looking at a car, on which a woman was placed for decoration, and viewing women as decoration, not human beings, is bad." Explain that the picture wasn't about the woman being some person of importance, but about her being a kind of pretty frame for the car.

You could also point out to her that this permeates society (men wear boring black suits, women wear sparkly dresses, etc) and that it is a problem because women are people, not decorative objects, and men tend to forget that.

Vestal spot on - just used your words of wisdom before bed time, and I think she got it.

She then asked me who decided back in the olden times that men would be knights and women would be princesses...! I think she's totally getting the broader picture. I explained (through the fact that I am myself pregnant at the moment) that because of pregnancy, there are times in a woman's life where she can't do everything in the same way as a man might (i.e. go on the scary flumes at a water park lucky escape for me this holiday haha ) and that because of this, it maybe got confused along the way that women were weaker than men so couldn't be heroic and always needed rescuing etc. When in actual fact that part of being a women - pregnancy and childbirth - is a pretty strong and heroic thing to do.

I'm a bit surprised that at 9 yo she doesn't already know that men are attracted to scantily clad women (and vice versa).

My 9yo DD and 9yo DS both understand the concept of objectification. Watch any film, advert, pass a build board - it's not hard to find examples (for both sexes).

Good looking people are attractive. They are often considered more attractive by the opposite sex if their bodies are more visible. The effect is highlighted if it's out of context e.g. A swimwear clad woman on a car is sexier than in a beach surrounded by lots of people.

Similarly a man in his boxers in a laundrette is sexier than if he'd been shown in his own kitchen.

Advertisers use this facet of human nature to sell stuff.

Funnily enough she mentioned adverts when I started giving vestal's answer, Penny

And if she does know that men are attracted to scantily clad women she hasn't let on to me. She is pretty immature in many ways (and only turned 9 a few days ago, if that means anything). In fact I feel if she did know about adult sexual attraction she wouldn't have asked me what the book meant in the first place. I don't think she understands the 'sexiness' of a woman in a bikini. Which is fine for now, actually.

Oh and FWIW I've literally never been attracted to scantily clad men. I fancy my DH, but don't at all get turned on by images of random topless men

Well buff underwear models aren't my thing either Little but a significant numbers of women do find them attractive.

Handsome men are used to sell things just as beautiful women are. Coco-cola have been using the Diet Coke man for years now.

Diary of a wimpey kid isn't age in appropriate but it does touch on the occasional older theme so you may want to prepare for further conversations of this nature.

I've always got MN to help me through those questions! It's as good way to touch on those subjects as any other. She's working her way through the whole series while we're away.

And the Diet Coke man doesn't work on me! I'm cold as ice, me

Handsome men are used to sell things just as beautiful women are. Coco-cola have been using the Diet Coke man for years now.

It's not comparable, shown as so many people name this one example every time they claim it's as frequent to depict men in this way. Women are routinely objectified in advertising and beyond - not only to sell products but also being presented in a decorative manner at, for example, cycling/other sporting event prize giving, car shows and so forth.

The handsome man in advertising is generally aimed to being aspirational for men, rather than trying to woo women, I'd say.

I'm aware there's not a comparable level of sexism NoLove I was just suggesting conversational examples for LittleWings DD.

No doubt if she was discussing this subject with her DD she would make that point (as would I)

I have both a DD and a DS so have a tendency to include a male example when speaking about this subject.

My 9 year son old is a white, middle class male, don't worry I'm bringing him up to be fully aware of his privileged position in society.

There's a study somewhere (don't have the link, sorry) that actually proves that a) sex doesn't sell in terms of advertising whatsoever and b) the presence of scantily clad and/or naked people in tv or movies doesn't increase the likelihood that someone will watch it. It's a massive fallacy. The use of scantily clad women in advertising is less to do with any factual reality of attraction and more to do with misogyny and patriarchy.

I should also add that far less men give a shit (in any true sense) than you think. A proportion of men who openly ogle or talk about women in these ways do t because it is a learned behaviour.