Someone has complained about a maternity leaflet mentioning women asits not inclusive of TransParents

[SoPassRemarkable]

Leaflet talks about a family friendly service and then says that all women should have access to information so they can make informed decisions.

Seeing as only women can be pregnant and women should be the ones making choices about their bodies I don't see the problem with the leaflet.

It's a woman who's complained.

Maybe that's because their group is more towarss non-binary than trans so they are quite feminist in their world view.

No, the worst person from the group I mentioned (the one who made no secret of the fact she wanted me dead) to was identifying as non-binary. That can't be it. (Though I suspect that most of the woman-hating non-binaries will eventually end up identifying as men, I have seen it happen once)

Must be a case of your friends not associating with bonkers misogynist asshats.

Though I wonder how one can be a trans activist and not misogynist. Surely, there's no need for transactivism? Tiny fraction of the population, and adults can have all the surgery they want.
Unless they are campaigning for unisex spaces in addiction to female and male spaces, I don't see how someone who doesn't want to throw women under the bus would have much activism to do.

Can't quite remember all the gems although "some women have prostates, some men have vaginas" was one

Could you throw a biology for dummies book at them?

It's reasonable to issue guidance for sensitive engagement with minority users but not to enforce a belief system institutionally. I'd suggest comparing it to community engagement with religious minorities - one is sensitive to the beliefs of, say, born again Christian women without adopting their philosophy institutionally. So we don't issue guidance addressed to helpmeets, but if you're professionally supporting a woman committed to that worldview, you accept it in the 121 interaction.

Zoloh I think you're exactly right. As a health care professional working within the NHS I have to acknowledge and work with my patient's health beliefs, and treat them with dignity and respect. I would never deliberately misgender a trans patient, because it would be rude, unkind and unprofessional. But individuals can do this without institutions, like the NHS and professional bodies, subscribing to a delusional and unscientific belief system. Those who believe in 'Trans' should be treated exactly like believers in any other religion.

Yes I would totally treat everyone with respect, call them whatever name they wanted, refer to them as "he", etc. Totally agree we need to do that.

I find the concept of introducing "mothering" into maternity care more problematic than introducing sex into it.

Statistically more women who are choosing not to continue pregnancies or having recently experienced a loss are likely to be accessing these services than trans f2m people and non-binary people. We need to not hurt one larger group in an effort to cater to the agenda of a smaller louder group.

Also think it's perfectly reasonable to call those accessing these services women. Meaning they have uterii and vaginas.

I've had a (little) bit of success pushing back on this stuff using this framing. It's possible to respect the beliefs of others without adopting them wholesale!

We already have public health policy frameworks and best practice guidance for religion and beliefs (for example: "Religion or belief: A practical guide for the NHS") and to some extent you can "out-diversity" complainants by appealing to this authority.

It would be medically unethical to institutionalise one set of beliefs about gender as objectively true when there's no objective scientific test and our diverse society contains multiple and contradictory beliefs about gender. (Sex is not gender and can be tested.)

(There are also specific rules against proselytising and it can form part of grounds for dismissal.)

If you're carrying a foetus, giving or have given birth, you're a mother.

I would totally treat everyone with respect, call them whatever name they wanted, refer to them as "he", etc
Same. I will use whatever pronoun someone wants, treat them with rewpect etc.
I won't rewrite biology though

That's a rather unique interpretation Gingernaut - I don't imagine someone who had an abortion at 10 weeks 20 years ago thinks of themselves as a mother.

Also a dear friend who had a stillbirth at term was recounting how painful she found the typical assumptions of motherhood post partum. She doesn't feel (and is definitely not acknowledged in society as) a mother.

"some women have prostate..."

And my answer to that would be -

'Awesome, so point them in to the direction of a doctor who specializes in male anatomy.

I think, certainly people within the NHS, need to be sensitive to someone's gender identification. However, they also need the correct clinical language and terms to refer to the differing biology men and women possess. Referring to 'people' instead of women, when talking about female biology, is misleading. So the best way, I feel is to asterisk and define terms within the context of the information given.

If you're carrying a foetus, giving or have given birth, you're a mother

No. You are a woman. You may or may not be a mother.

I find the concept of introducing "mothering" into maternity care more problematic than introducing sex into it

I agree. What about women who are acting as surrogates or where a baby will be being placed for adoption?

I agree. What about women who are acting as surrogates or where a baby will be being placed for adoption?

That's another vanishingly small subsection of people who we really don't need to re-write everything for, isn't it?

Gingernaut - If you're carrying a foetus, giving or have given birth, you're a mother

grandOlejukeofYork - No. You are a woman. You may or may not be a mother.

Well said. That's what I meant to say.

MaisyPops, your posts have set me thinking. "Surely most trans men are trans men because they feel male and having their female anatomy causes them a huge amount of distress? So the vast majority of transmen will not want to be pregnant because that's a womans thing."

I wonder if they do actually feel male; or if they just don't want to be female because of the experiences they have had whilst being visibly female .

The Tavistock clinic is getting more teenaged girls than boys being referred (it used to be the other way round), plus I came across this newspaper article where the psychiatrist comments that “The girls say, ‘If only I had been a male I wouldn’t have been abused’ ’’.

The media constantly pushes images of hyperfemininity (big hair, boob, tiny waists, face full of slap) which few girls match, and the availability of porn on phones - I don't think I'd want to be a woman, were I growing up now.

So I wonder how many trans-identified females actually want to BE male, and how many want to just not be perceived as female (and therefore a target).

If this was the case, it explains to me how/why they can still contemplate pregnancy and birth.

I don't know, just thinking out loud here.

That's another vanishingly small subsection of people who we really don't need to re-write everything for, isn't it?

Yes but I'd imagine there will be more surrogates/adoption situations than there are trans patients?

Can't they just have a separate leaflet for the 3 "men" (or whatever minute figure that is statistically irrelevant) a year that give birth?

Yes but I'd imagine there will be more surrogates/adoption situations than there are trans patients?

Neither are worth changing the language for. You talking about hundreds of thousands annually vs a number you can likely count on two hands.

Neither are worth changing the language for

I actually agree.

Can't they just have a separate leaflet for the 3 "men" (or whatever minute figure that is statistically irrelevant) a year that give birth?

There are a lot of perfectly average young girls who identify as "non binary femmes" but will bite your head off if you misgender them with "she" or suggest they are women. They love all this "inclusive" shit and can't see how it dehumanises women.

Has anyone heard that in Canada they are hoping to get rid of sex on the birth certificate replacing it with an "x" for all babies by next year.
I'm getting seriously worried about where this train is heading. I absolutely despair. Biological sex is going to be censored. I can't stand this madness anymore.