How to reconcile two very different opinions (pregnancy/rights)

[Thurlow]

It occurred to me today that two opinions I hold quite strongly are completely different, and its bothering me.

The first is abortion. I believe that it is entirely a woman's choice whether to continue a pregnancy or not. The father can have an opinion and, in an ideal world, will support the woman's opinion but it's still her final choice whether to go through with the pregnancy or not, even if the father is absolutely desperate to have a child. I don't believe that any woman should ever have to continue with a pregnancy they don't want.

The second is about father's rights once the baby is born. Take naming the child. Sometimes I see comments like, "you carried the baby, you gave birth to the baby, you have the final say in what name they carry." I believe that just because a woman is the only person biologically capable of carrying a child doesn't mean that the child is somehow more "theirs". It's not like some sort of global conspiracy whereby men chose not to be the ones to get pregnant. So, both the mother and the father (assuming a fair relationship) are equal parents.

But these are drastically different opinions Does anyone understand or have any suggestions to help me work it out, as it's slightly bothering me.

For me, my children are individuals and don't share my first name or middle names; they are their own people with their own names. So it wasn't important at all for me to share a surname as well. It's just another part of their name.

But it is the part of their name that ties them to a family and history. This may be more important to me than others, because my name is uncommon. I'm not married, but I won't give up my name if we do get married. Equally, I know women who have been keen to shed their family name as they didn't feel much attachment to their family. There are many options that people can choose from for all different reasons. But if your name means something to you, and I mean the general you here, I don't understand why you wouldn't care about passing it onto your child. DP and I both wanted to pass on our names, so our children will all have a double barrel.

Keeping your own name still isn't the norm upon marriage, so it just strikes me as odd that women decide not to take a man's name, which is making a choice that goes against default expectations, and then give their children the father's name only.

I would consider Northern Ireland to be a very different kind of society to Britain, Notever

You don't know much about it then, do you?

"There are no benefits at all to having 2 parents rather than a mother and grandmother sharing care, or a brother and sister sharing care, or collective care in a group, or 101 other arrangements."

I don't agree. I'm an adoptive parent, and as much as I love DD with all my heart, I wish that she had been able to stay with her birth parents. I think most adoptive parents would agree .

Perhaps one way to look at the issues in the OP is to thinking about meeting needs rather than servicing rights. A newborn baby needs all of its needs taken care of, including feeling safe and secure. It "knows" its birth mother pretty much immediately, so the simplest way for it to feel secure is contact with her. If she is being BF, she also needs regular contact with her birth mother for survival. Mothers similarly need contact with their newborns (those hormones rushing around our bodies post-partum drive us to that), but it is a "nice to have" for fathers at this stage.

Needs obviously change as the baby grows up. A father needs to have time alone in charge with her if he is ever going to learn how to look after her adequately. (I really worry about the MNers who never leave their DP alone with the baby for more than 30 mins)

Things like choosing a name isn't a need beyond the baby's need to have one that can be registered with the local registrar. So it isn't something that should fall to either the mother or father to decide, because neither of them have a greater need. (Note - I'm not including issues about surnames and PR, I'm talking about whether the baby is called Susan or Laetitia-Lillybeth)

No, I don't know a great deal about Northern Ireland at all.

My knowledge of it only really comes from the media.

Oleanna, yes, I agree with your post.

A newborn taken from its mother is likely to suffer, in some way.

A newborn without a(n involved) father will, in the vast majority of cases, fare better than one without a mother.

There are biological differences in the role of mothers and fathers in the early days (I'm a big believer in the 4th trimester).

Yes, Sonic. Have you read The Primal Wound?

Has it been helpful to read as an adoptive parent, Olenna?

I haven't yet Olennas, sounds like it may be quite sad?

I should add to my last post... That I do believe the father is equally responsible for the Baby, but part of being a responsible father in the early days is assisting and making sure the baby is getting what it needs from its mother.

Just to chime in with some Biology, when a man cares for a newborn we experience elevated levels of a hormone called pectolactin (the same hormone that in women is involved in milk production). The presence of this hormone in men achieves a number of things, first off it increases the instinct to nurture, and second it (temporarily) decreases testosterone.

This hormonal change lasts around 6 months which is long enough to pair bond with your child and be pretty keyed in with their needs. It also increases the desire and habit to nurture effectively, as in the more you do it the more you want to do it.

This process I think does cause some long term changes (don't quote me on that its been awhile since I looked at the research), in that men who have experienced this will react to a baby crying with an instinct to nurture where's more men who haven't will react to a baby crying with feelings of aggression.

Have you got a link Dervel, because I can't find any links to something called Pectolactin?

There are many studies on changes to the brain when people care for babies. It's really interesting how plastic the brain is.

Is it prolactin?

Yes, I think it might be this:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4970346/

So men who care for babies are better at caring for babies, and are "programmed" not to run off and abandon the baby and mother? I can see a strong evolutionary reason for that

Sonic - yes, it is, but fascinating. It explains why many older adoptees who had no idea that they were adopted "knew" that they weren't with their birth mother, even though they can have no memory of her having been removed from her at a young age.

No, I don't know a great deal about Northern Ireland at all.My knowledge of it only really comes from the media

Then you probably shouldn't comment, especially so offensively.

I'll comment within the range of what I do know about it, notever.

I'm aware it has major issues around mother and baby homes, mistreatment of birth mothers in the adoptive process and malnutrition leading to deaths of babies, and these is an investigation into these places.

I think it's fair to say adoption is not a good solution to women pregnant due to lack of abortion access, and has a terrible history in Northern Ireland.

aware it has major issues around mother and baby homes, mistreatment of birth mothers in the adoptive process and malnutrition leading to deaths of babies, and these is an investigation into these places

SEVENTY YEARS AGO.

FFS, could you not? It's offensive and you are embarrassing yourself.

It was also interesting (if I'm understanding it correctly), that the dads of older children had high prolactin levels, and then they'd decrease throughout the play session with their child.

As if there's a need to play with your kids, that gets soothed as you do so.

I was referring to this, not ever:

"Oonagh McAleer, Chairperson of the Birth Mothers and their Children for Justice NI campaign group, was forced into Marianvale mother and baby home in Newry when she became pregnant as a 17 year-old. She gave birth to a son in 1980 but was prevented from ever seeing or holding her baby before he was taken away for adoption against her will."

www.itv.com/news/utv/2017-06-14/mother-and-baby-home-victims-call-for-northern-ireland-public-inquiry/

I don't think the bodily autonomy arguments end at birth. Breastfeeding is a choice a woman makes about her body, and this should not be interfered with for anyone else.

I don't think the bodily autonomy arguments end at birth. Breastfeeding is a choice a woman makes about her body, and this should not be interfered with for anyone else

It should if the needs of the child are different. The childs right to be fed safely and correctly outweighs the rights of the mother to choose to breastfeed. There are instances where breastfeeding could actually dangerous or even fatal to a child.

Yes, in those pretty extreme circumstances we're taking about the health of the baby, which absolutely are the most important considerations in how a baby is fed. I thought that would go without saying, actually, or would have added it.

But generally, breastfeeding is a perfectly safe option, and only the mother should make that decision. A father shouldn't be able to force the mother of his children to breastfeed, as that interferes with her bodily autonomy. It works the other way round, too.

Just a tweak on the breastfeeding thing - I would argue it's a choice a woman makes about her body and her baby. For a woman to make a choice either way about breastfeeding without even considering the baby would make me worry a bit for her tbh. Sounds like the kind of detachment you get with PND. Lots of babies make a desire to breastfeed known through actions and can sway mothers who have been encouraged to have lots of skin to skin.

Of course I totally agree the partner doesn't get any say in breastfeeding, although sadly when they aren't supportive their actions can put on a fair amount of pressure. I know two women who were pressured by their partner to breastfeed, but I know countless who stopped because of pressure from family and friends to get the dad / other family involved in feeding 'for the bond' and it seems more common that way round.

Either way other people shouldn't be dictating what a woman does with her body and on this topic as for others I believe the mothers decision about the baby should be the paramount one too - as in, a mother who wants to breastfeed should be able to exclusively breastfeed without the father wanting a 50% say or to do 50% of feeds (which would probably lead to drying up the milk supply, so it's not a situation it's possible to compromise on).