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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sex and relationship education.

53 replies

Moussemoose · 14/08/2017 16:27

A thread I inspired by another thread.

I work - think teacher but not quite - with young people from challenging backgrounds. Every year I have to deliver 'Sex and Relationship' education. When working with traditional groups, inner city boys and girls, we cover most issues you would expect and it is quite easy to add a feminist slant. Think indoctrinationWink

The point of the thread is when dealing with boys and girls - we teach them this separately - from outside the UK (asylum seekers, economic migrants)
what are the key messages to get across from a feminist perspective?

You can't get everything across. You need to pick key points to focus on. You have to be non aggressive or you loose the whole message. Some don't know the basic facts of life.

At the moment I cover a lot but focus on:

  1. basic biology
  2. wear a condom
  3. no means no

I'm going to integrate it more this year so will have a bit more scope. I want to cascade this to colleagues so we are all pushing the same message.

What will enable the women to control their lives and the boys to move towards a less patriarchal mindset? I say that because I am not going to win this battle just shift the ground a little we need to be realistic.

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AssassinatedBeauty · 14/08/2017 16:59

Do you have a set curriculum that you need to stick to or include specific content from?

grasspigeons · 14/08/2017 17:08

Do you just teach boys?
I would remind girls to say no and I would explain to boys that 'no' might be quite subtle - anything less than enthusiasm is probably no
Both times I was sexually assaulted (minorly thank god) I froze.

DJBaggySmalls · 14/08/2017 17:09

I get where you;re coming from, we need to use a step by step approach. I think you've got the basic message in those 3 points.
Can you say something about sexual health and regular check ups being important for both sexes, and how women can see a female doctor or nurse? Men in some cultures seem to have a problem with women accessing healthcare.
Maybe you could use cystitis and thrush as examples, as they live on the skin and can flare up when we feel run down. You dont have to catch them from someone else. People sometimes assume their partner has been unfaithful.
But you can pass them on and both partners need treatment.

JasmineGreen · 14/08/2017 17:11

If many of them don't know the basic facts of life, then the focus should be on sexual development - the kind of puberty topics usually covered at the end of primary school.

grasspigeons · 14/08/2017 17:13

Maybe let them both know it's meant to be nice and fun for both of them too

OrangeButton · 14/08/2017 17:14

Agree with changing from "no means no" to "Yes means yes..but it can change to no, so check as you go along". If girls are from patriarchal backgrounds then questioning men in any context is usually out. Therefore it can be very difficult for girls to actually say No. Men are not used to listening for subtleties either so if they don't hear NO assume they've got consent.

And maybe a "throwaway" comment about how "real men" want to make sure their partner is actually having fun and being pleasures, not just pretending to be.

SisterhoodisPowerful · 14/08/2017 17:30

EVAW, based in London, have been campaigning for mandatory sex and healthy relationships education. They've got some excellent research and plans that you might find really helpful.

SisterhoodisPowerful · 14/08/2017 17:31

There's that teacup video about consent as well. It's short and definitely lends itself to discussions about how we understand consent and why it's more than just no means no.

Moussemoose · 14/08/2017 17:32

OrangeButton

No set curriculum.

Good idea about 'yes means yes' will have to think how to word it.....The girls don't always realise that no is an option once married.

I have a anatomical pencil drawing of female and male genitalia. I spend a lot of time discussing the clitoris and the concept of female sexual pleasure. Both boys are girls don't always realise it should be fun for the girl too. The boys always look at me like I'm a little mad when I explain girls can masturbate, this is so far outside their comprehension I'm not sure how much headway make.

So rather than no means no, perhaps "an enthusiastic yes is necessary"

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Moussemoose · 14/08/2017 17:34

SisterhoodisPowerful I'll have a look at those links but language is an issue. English is not their first language.

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LassWiTheDelicateAir · 14/08/2017 18:04

The point of the thread is when dealing with boys and girls - we teach them this separately - from outside the UK (asylum seekers, economic migrants)

Clothes are just clothes. A woman does not lose the right to be respected as human being and an equal because of the quantity of her clothes.

Moussemoose · 14/08/2017 18:08

LassWiTheDelicateAir

"Clothes are just clothes"

Your right - I say it, we discuss it - but to be honest I'm on to a loser with that one with both boys and girls. Unfortunately.Hmm

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VestalVirgin · 14/08/2017 18:34

Basic biology: Girls need to know how their vagina works and how the parts of the vulva are named. Goes really for girls from all backgrounds - too many women don't seem to be aware that a vagina needs to be acidic and should therefore not be washed with soap, that antibiotics adversely affect the bacteria there, etc.
Facts on how to deal with menstruations would also be useful - schools usually teach you why you menstruate but aren't terribly useful when it comes to practical matters.
(Also, give info on where to get more information.)

Sex: Immigrant girls will face some contradicting messages. I'd focus on equipping them with all they need to avoid being coerced into having sex. Don't put on rose-tinted glasses when it comes to how that works; "just say no" isn't going to cut it. Some males are rapists, and a girl who grew up in a culture even more patriarchal than ours will be ill equipped to fight back against a male.
So don't teach them that it is all okay to be alone with boys when their culture of origin says otherwise, and the rate of date rape kinda also does.
Teach them to think about what they want, and then about how they can best achieve that. Teach them that it is fine to tell a boy "my parents wouldn't allow that" if he doesn't leave them alone. Teach them how to go to the toilet and vanish through the back door if a man molests them in a bar. In short, prepare them to deal with the very real risk of a "no" being ignored.
Emphasize that it is okay to be different from their peers in what they will do and won't do.

I've met some (highly educated!) Muslim girls at uni who seriously thought unwanted pregnancy would never happen to someone from their cultural background.

So, if you have that kind of people, why not go along with their beliefs and give them the contraception and consent lesson in the context of marriage? Be honest about the real state of affairs, i.e. that marital rape is officially illegal, but it is really hard to get a rapist punished if he was married to the victim.
I feel that girls from cultures that are against divorce and against sex before marriage deserve to know exactly what they get into when marrying, considering that marital rape is not considered a crime by those subcultures. (That includes Christian extremists)

Go through the whole range of contraception and emergency contraception, perhaps with a bit more of a focus on practical matters, as unsupportive parents might be a higher risk.

When it comes to boys; I actually don't believe that boys and men are at all confused about consent. Don't have the link here, but there's even studies on the matter; and men are proven to be very well able to recognize a "soft no". They just often choose to ignore it when it is inconvenient for them.

So instead of teaching boys that no means no, I'd focus more on trying to teach them empathy for girls. "What do you think, how does a girl feel if ...", that sort of thing.

Advice on condoms is good. Advice that they don't have to have sex may also be needed, depending on how much boys are pressured by their male peers to have "conquests".

And maybe a "throwaway" comment about how "real men" want to make sure their partner is actually having fun and being pleasures, not just pretending to be.

Um, no. Masculinity is toxic. It being a matter of vanity for men to get a woman to orgasm has changed things from women being allowed to be honest about their lack of enjoyment to having to pretend orgasms.

Teach boys female anatomy so they CAN please a woman in bed, and teach them empathy so they WANT to.
Making it a matter of male vanity would only make things worse.

VestalVirgin · 14/08/2017 18:37

Wow, didn't intend for my post to be that long!

I actually forgot something: If you have the time, a lesson for the girls on red flags for abusiveness would be a good thing - especially if they are opposed to divorce, they should be VERY careful with whom they marry.

BeyondQueenOfLists · 14/08/2017 18:44

Would it be plausible to include fgm and porn? Or heading too far away from the basics?

QuarksandLeptons · 14/08/2017 19:33

Something on how lots of people are gay and lesbian and that's ok too and they can have full and happy lives with marriage and children if they want too. That it is legally protected within our society.

Also that men/boys and women/girls don't need to conform to stereotypes and that everyone has a different personality that doesnt necessarily fit exactly with what some people think their sex should conform too.

Women/girls can ask men/boys out and make the first move, if that's what feels right.

QuarksandLeptons · 14/08/2017 19:36

Oh and definitely agree with BeyondQueenOfLists that FGM should be noted as a criminal offence and that it carries no benefits at all.

PricklyBall · 14/08/2017 19:37

For the girls, how about that book that's recently been published "The Muslimah's sex Guide"?

DJBaggySmalls · 14/08/2017 20:08

Our Bodies Ourselves is a useful resource
www.ourbodiesourselves.org/

Some chapters have been translated and you can read/print them as PDF;
www.ourbodiesourselves.org/global-projects/publications-available-online/

www.ourbodiesourselves.org/publications/

www.ourbodiesourselves.org/global-projects/global-initiative/

Moussemoose · 14/08/2017 20:09

PricklyBall

For the girls, how about that book that's recently been published "The Muslimah's sex Guide
I will ask the library to get copies - thanks

I do cover FGM and porn.
It's a bit weird the Somali boys know nothing about it at all. Nothing. No idea what is going on. Blank faces. They don't have a wish to have a 'cut' wife because they don't know anything about it. Well not until I tell them with some interesting visual aids.

Porn - the official Muslim line is that porn is haram (forbidden) so I use that to help get the message across. It's harder with the British born kids.

Stereotypes and gender roles hmmm I do discuss this but again a bit of a lost cause in terms of it being a key message.

Gay and Lesbian lifestyles? I cover that when we do prejudice. I may have some impact on some of the students and I do my best but.........

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Moussemoose · 14/08/2017 20:17

VestalVirgin

Thanks for the input. The boys (Afghani, Somali) often have no concept that consent is even an issue let alone that they could ignore it.

We have a period of time set aside for physical activity the boys dominate this and play football. I was thinking of trying to get the girls more active but time might be better spent talking to the girls about those 'contradicting messages' they get. Can't do both. Would it be unfair to cut exercise and have a discussion group?

Clearly, I am speaking in generalisations and some young people from different cultures don't conform to these generalisations.

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JasmineGreen · 14/08/2017 20:21

It will make a huge difference to the kids listening who are gay or lesbian, regardless of whether or not it gets through to anyone else.

Moussemoose · 14/08/2017 20:21

DJBaggySmalls

Big thanksGrin

We can get them to read them in their first language and then discuss in English. PDFs as well - that's the photocopying budget blown!

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Moussemoose · 14/08/2017 20:23

JasmineGreen

Muslims aren't gay or lesbian. I am told that regularly.

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Youcanttaketheskyfromme · 14/08/2017 20:49

Not much to add but huge focus on INFORMED FREELY GIVEN consent as mentioned above.

Particularly within marriage. And that it's ok for anyone to not want to, or to change their minds at any one and that should be respected.

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