Nursing bursary for men

[MissMoneyPlant]

Interested in your thoughts on this:

Coventry University is addressing the growing gender imbalance on nursing and healthcare courses with a new bursary aimed at encouraging men into the field.
The university has announced a fund of £30,000 to help 10 men in subjects where they are under-represented including nursing, occupational therapy, physiotherapy, midwifery operating department practice, and dietetics.
...
"The award, spread across each year of the degree, is believed to be the first created specifically for men taking nursing and healthcare courses in UK higher education
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The total number of nursing applicants in England fell by 23 per cent this year. The drop has been linked to the removal of NHS bursaries for healthcare students ...

Rob James, Academic Dean for the Faculty of Health and Life Sciences at Coventry University, and chair of its Athena SWAN committee for gender equality said:
“... While there’s lots being done nationally - and at Coventry - to encourage women into sciences and engineering we hope this new initiative will lead the way in addressing the persistent low proportion of men working in many healthcare professions."

Link: www.coventry.ac.uk/primary-news/university-tackles-nursing-gender-gap-with-first-bursary-for-men/

Aside from the chair of the committee for gender equality being a (white) man (), I'm not sure what I think about this. In theory, steps towards gender equality, especially men taking on caring roles = good thing. But something seems not quite right to me. It seems a kick in the teeth in light of the general bursary for all students being scrapped. Like the work isnt valued if it's a woman doing it. And I'm pretty sure the main barriers for women in traditionally "male" areas are not financial, whereas this seems to suggest give men enough money and they'll do it... the work that women have done for years for no or little pay. IDK, maybe I'm being nitpicking...

Like the work isnt valued if it's a woman doing it. It isn't. And I've noticed that more men in a traditionally female field pulls the wages up for everyone. Really fucking depressing.

No, you aren't nitpicking, I noticed this too.

Increasing the pay for nursing professions in general in the hopes to tempt men to do it, fair enough, women profit from that, too.

But paying men extra to do things women do not get paid extra for? What the fuck are they even thinking?

The reasons why there are so few women in engineering, etc, are completely different from why there are so few men in nursing and stuff. (And why the heck would anyone want men to become midwives?)

I know some men who are in female dominated professions, and they are very happy and content because their female colleagues are very nice to them and all is well. They just have to live with being paid less than men in other jobs.
Nothing like women in male dominated professions, at all.

I am conflicted - I get what you're both saying, and don't disagree, but not sure I totally understand the difference in wanting to encourage men into nursing and wanting to encourage women into STEM careers.

Hmm, when you put it like that, Heratnumber7...
What is different?
The way the sex imbalance is being addressed, maybe? Are there financial incentives for women to study male-dominated subjects? (I honestly don't know). Are the actual barriers being addressed in either case?

I suppose it's because nursing is low-paid, compared to the male-dominated professions, so it's the idea that if we want male nurses we have to pay them better, whereas women will do it anyway so who cares about the bursary being scrapped for the female majority.

And frankly I suspect the reason there are relatively few male nurses has very little to do with pay.

I think the difference is in where the barriers are. There is literally nothing stopping a man from being a nurse - other than money (the price he puts on his time and effort) and his own ego. Whereas the entire system and everyone in it is stacked against the girl trying to get into STEM - from the physics teacher at A levels, to recruiters with bias, to interview panels, colleagues and society in general with the pink glitter and blue dinosaur bullshit.

This isn't about nurses' pay though, is it? Nor STEM career pay. It's about bursaries to get them through university.

I don't know - I see both sides

I once saw an excellent graph, which I can't find now! It showed which degrees were 'worth it'. Top in terms of salary per student expense were all the male-dominated areas; engineering, mining etc. All the lowest were, you guessed it, all the female-dominated ones; teaching, nursing, social work. What actually needs to happen is to pay those people better AND encourage women into STEM subjects so they can earn more.

Men can presumably go into nursing at any point, it's only money/status putting them off. Things women are supposed to suck up. Women in STEM is about so many structural and other things.

vestalvirgin

Why wouldn't you want men training/working as midwives?

i know some men who are in female dominated professions, and they are very happy and content because their female colleagues are very nice to them and all is well

Are you fucking joking?

Men can apply just as easily as women. I think it's ludicrous to offer an incentive to men. Nursing and midwifery, should do back to the bursary for all, especially in light of recruitment difficulties.

*go back and it should be better paid generally.

I hope they spend at least that amount of money on bursaries for women in fields where they are massively under represented.

I think that more men should be encouraged to go into jobs that are usually dominated by women. I don't think that it's the money that puts them off though, and it's not the same issues that put women off STEM subjects. I doubt you'd see a senior woman nurse writing and distributing to her colleagues, a 10 page manifesto about why men are inescapably biologically unsuited to being nurses.

Hang on a minute, I"m not comfortable with everyone saying that "men can apply just as easily as women". Men (or perhaps more accurately, boys) are subject to the same patriarchal pressures as girls, and can be actively discouraged from "caring" careers because they are male, just as girls have been subject to years of "science isn't for girls".

I am in STEM academia and haven't seen bursaries for women in STEM courses. That's my issue here - it seems a much greater help than that offered to women in STEM fields. And there is a lot of outreach going on for women in STEM. Whether there are effective measures to address issues once they get there is another question...

Whether there are effective measures to address issues once they get there is another question...

Ain't it just!

What a crock!!!

Yes less men join nursing but they tend to be promoted quicker and statistically are over represented at senior levels.

Same old same old, women do the grind with no thanks, a man does same standing ovation

Offering bursaries to both is clearly not an equal recruitment method when STEM is already better paid. And, yes, boys are subjected to the same patriarchal pressures. But clearly this initiative says that the money is the issue and that enrollment specifically from men, has fallen. Therefore money is clearly the issue to the men they are recruiting.

Posted too soon saying what I have most of my male ex colleagues would be equally offended by this

Yes less men join nursing but they tend to be promoted quicker and statistically are over represented at senior levels. I see this in SW and housing as well.

Their press release doesn't identify that money is specifically a factor for males applying to nursing. If money is a disincentive for both men and women, then the whole thing stinks, frankly.

Damn Same old same old, women do the grind with no thanks, a man does same standing ovation

Didn't mention it before as seemed too tangenital, but I have previously wondered about the likelihood of men vs women getting onto a nurse training course. Years ago I applied myself, for a very oversubscribed course, and was convinced I wouldnt get a place (I did, as it happens) and was gobsmacked that an 18yr old male friend had got a place straight from 6th form - I just couldnt see how he'd have convinced them with the relevant life experience etc (I'm sure he's a great nurse, it's just that it was so competitive!) I did ponder whether it was easier for a man to be seen as the right nursey type, because a man being nurturing is not expected, so more obvious. Wasn't very feminist then so didn't really think it through but I still wonder. Like, a man does some caring - standing ovation, a woman does something "masculine" - has to do it twice as well as a man to get noticed. OTOH if a man has resisted all socialisation and still wants to take on a caring role, perhaps that shows they are really suited to it, more than a woman of the same level of... er, caring-ness.

Hmm.

Women not being able to get STEM jobs is a problem exactly because those jobs are better paid. Women not being able to access well paid jobs is unfair.

Men not wanting to enter badly paid jobs typically done by women has nothing to do with that.

It is unfair that women do so much badly paid work, but the problem is easily resolved by paying the women in those jobs better.

Any effort to lure men to those jobs by paying them more is deeply sexist and misogynist. If at all, you should try to make them do those jobs by appealing to their conscience and telling them that they shouldn't be so greedy and just help people.

Why wouldn't you want men training/working as midwives?

Because I probably will never have children as I know my need for privacy and dignity would not be respected in a hospital and male doctors would walk around looking at my private parts without asking for consent.

And now the option to give birth at home with a midwife (which is only a pseudo-option as any complication will mean any precautions taken are null and void) is also going to be invaded by men?

Why the fuck would you think that a good idea?

If you don't care what sex your midwife is, you'll be fine with a female one, if you do care, you'll be happy with a female one, and I cannot imagine any woman would actively want a male midwife, and even if there are such women, I am sure the men who enter the profession of their own free will, with the current shitty pay there is, are enough to provide for all those women who specifically want a male midwife.

Society in general has nothing to gain from more male midwives.

And are you really so fucking idiotic that you claim males in female dominated professions are sexually harrassed, bullied, et cetera, which IS WHAT MEN DO TO WOMEN IN MALE DOMINATED PROFESSIONS!? Because I have seen none of that. In most primary schools, the only male teacher is at the very top of the hierarchy!

OTOH if a man has resisted all socialisation and still wants to take on a caring role, perhaps that shows they are really suited to it, more than a woman of the same level of... er, caring-ness.

Well, that may be a factor, but then, shouldn't women in male dominated professions also be promoted faster, etc, as they are so committed to the profession that they not only resisted socialisation, but also dealt with the harrassment, etc, they got immediately after entering training?

Considering that women have to do everything twice as good as men to be considered just as good, we can assume that women in male dominated professions are geniuses.

Doesn't seem to be reflected in pay or promotions, though.

You're not bothered by the shortage of midwives then vestalvirgin?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/17/uk-midwife-shortage-report-red-flag

This doesn't bother you.

I'm a chap who works in an Early Years setting. I'm routinely overhearing comments that he children 'only listen to him because he's a man', as well as putting up with comments about my lack of maternal experience. The other day a charming young lady on my diploma course made a number of oh-so-hilarious jokes about me being a 'paedo' and a 'kiddy fiddler'.

Anyway, as you were.

Self ID is obviously the solution here for female would-be midwives who cannot currently afford the course....

I can see both sides but on the whole I do think it's a semi good idea.

I'm biased though as my lovely male cousin is doing nursing degree and tbh I couldn't think of anyone better suited for the job.

I"m not comfortable with everyone saying that "men can apply just as easily as women". Men (or perhaps more accurately, boys) are subject to the same patriarchal pressures as girls, and can be actively discouraged from "caring" careers because they are male, just as girls have been subject to years of "science isn't for girls
A male friend of mine was put off working with early years for ages and instead was working with teenagers for years because he felt social pressure that early years isn't a man's job.

Another male friend teaches primary and it annoys him how often he'll hear comments like "we so glad you've got little timmy because what he really needs is an authority figure" (implication that male teachers are the discipline ones). Often male teachers in primary will end up in slt quicker and often end up teaching upper KS2.
All patriarchal pressures that affect the men opting for caring professions.