Perception of women in performing arts

[katymac]

It's not really a TAAT but another thread brought up the idea that girls/women working as models or dancers would be predisposed to working in the sex industry.

Obviously my opinions on this are quite firm, as I have a dancer daughter who models - her opinions are also firm, she has grave doubts about some 'jobs' and won't do them or apply for them - her criteria for deciding is what she considers as moral.

However this is a vew that is held widely (apparently) is there any way to challenge or minimise it

I don't generally post in feminism as I feel I often don't understand enough and use the discussion here to start my learning and read around topics. But today this was brought up & I objected

However this is a vew that is held widely (apparently) is there any way to challenge or minimise it

Genuine question - is it a view that is held widely or just by some idiots?

I doubt it's a common view.

I haven't read the other thread, but people often get worked up into overstating opinions on forums.

Well DD has been working towards her career for 6 years & there have been comments and looks from people (not actual friends)

How can I allow it/she will come to a bad end/did I really want her to show off her body like that

I know that 'traditionally' actresses were thought to be 'of easy virtue'

But there is an undercurrent of similar feeling, occasionally commented on - perhaps connected with

posted too soon, sorry

But there is an undercurrent of similar feeling, occasionally commented on - perhaps connected with or similar to a sort of victim blaming?

When I say traditionally I am thinking back centuries to Nell Gwynne (but admittedly I know very little)

If its not a common view I will be relieved

I don't know if it's a widespread view, or a commonly held view. It doesn't seem like it to me as it's not one that I've ever heard mentioned about people who are currently in those occupations.

Comments like that would warrant a short response along the lines of "don't be so silly, we're not in the 18th century" and then I'd ignore whoever had said it.

To be honest at worst I think if I were reading an article about someone who looked like say Sam Fox (i.e. someone who does not have a traditional cat walk look, or unusual idiosyncratic looks many modern catwalk models have, or a non traditional in modelling circles ethnic background or particular features such as great hair/hands/above average height/plus size) I might assume it meant what Sam Fox used to do.

Even then I would view it as a term used by the "Sam Fox" model to up her status and definitely not that it means every model is willing to do "Sam Fox" work.

But centuries ago acting was seen as a very low sort of profession that only scoundrels and dregs would get involved with - that's why women were banned from being actors for so long. Now it's seen as a very glamorous job and actors are looked up to and admired (Also Nell Gwynne was the lover of the King, people might have disapproved, but she was hardly giving it up to any old Tom, Dick or Harry).

I suppose if people are hard of thinking they might assume that because some actresses appear naked or do sex scenes in some roles that therefore they wouldn't mind being a part of the "sex industry", but like I said, you'd have to be very hard of thinking to conflate the two.

And I suppose, acting being a job that is difficult to break into and leaves young actors desperately poor at the start of their career, it's possible some young actresses turn to stripping/porn to pay the bills. But I imagine that more would turn to waitressing.

But surely no one would think that a dedicated actor/ dancer who had worked and trained hard for years and was building themselves a career would be happy to be a stripper. Desperate people do desperate things, it doesn't make them glad about their choice and certainly no one type of person is "predisposed" to working in the "sex industry". You might make a better stripper if you had trained as a dancer but that doesn't mean all strippers are trained dancers, or that all dancers are likely to become strippers. Only an idiot could think that, I'm happy to report I have never come across anyone who does. If you do come across someone who thinks that I think a simple "Don't be so fucking stupid!" would be all the challenging the situation merited.

I think there's a lovey-hippy sort of stereotype of people in the arts. Like, more open and fluid communities than most with lots of self-expression, but also insular with everyone sleeping with everyone else.

Add to that the 'struggling penniless artist who is desperate for cash' trope, and knowing they can put on an act and have already sort of confidently 'sold' their bodies in one way by performing, and you can easily see a sort of 'they'd be more up for it than investment bankers would be' preconception starting to emerge.

Disclaimer, am more than a tiny bit and am not saying any of this is true, just pondering.

I don't agree at all justtake

Icantreachthepretzels's post makes sense.

I don't want to come across as having a go, because justtakewas just musing and this wasn't what she believed but:

Add to that the 'struggling penniless artist who is desperate for cash' trope, and knowing they can put on an act and have already sort of confidently 'sold' their bodies in one way by performing, and you can easily see a sort of 'they'd be more up for it than investment bankers would be' preconception starting to emerge.

seems to be a brilliant example of:

I suppose if people are hard of thinking they might assume that because some actresses appear naked or do sex scenes in some roles that therefore they wouldn't mind being a part of the "sex industry", but like I said, you'd have to be very hard of thinking to conflate the two.

Performing on stage in a play/ musical (even if you appeared naked ) is not 'selling' your body. Conflating theatre with stripping because they're both performances seems to me to be along the same lines as conflating prostitution with toilet cleaning because they're both grim jobs nobody 'wants' to do - it completely ignores the nature of sex "work".

I think that the word model has been hijacked by people who I see on the fringes of the sex industry - Instagram models etc. is there an adjective that she can use in front of the word model like catwalk, fashion, catalog, print which doesn't conjure images of tits and arse? (I know that modeling underwear is a legitimate part of modeling but they also model other clothing)

Performing on stage in a play/ musical (even if you appeared naked  ) is not 'selling' your body

Of course it isn't. We see the same disingenuous argument about prostitution. Either that prostitution is a valid just the same as any other job selling one's labour or the faux concern about exploited workers.

Oh god definitely not what I think, sorry!

Was trying to work out why it would be a stereotype is all.

Although she has modelled shoes & accessories most of her modelling money is from modelling for photographers to learn how to take photos dunno what that is called

It is complicated - one of the roles she can have (within a college performance) is 'walker' which is basically walking on and standing round in costume (often skimpy) while other people dance - they do take 'turns' but it's a very negative 'thing' (imo) but totally normal

The difficulty in challenging the view is that in many cases it is correct: "model" is often a euphemism for "glamour model", "dancer" is often a euphemism for "stripper", and dance companies and orchestras (I don't know about acting) are often hotbeds of shagging (not all of them, and not everyone, of course!)

So I think what I would do in your situation - ie if someone made a comment about my daughter - is fix them with a hard look and say that she is a talented dancer who also lucky enough to be able to earn money from modelling, and that it's just lazy to apply stereotypes

I've come across it a bit, the idea that because someone is an actress she should be flattered at being offered a job as a bikini clad ring girl in fighting sports.

The person who assumed that is a colossal tool but its tricky because I think most of the dangers come from people within the industry who are willing to exploit girls and women. There was a local case recently where an agent was banned from running or stepping inside the building where his wife runs an agency. He'd been assaulting a number of the young women who came to auditions. He had a previous conviction but no one spoke up because (according to one of the women I spoke to) that was the agency the local BBC used and they had jobs at stake. Bastard.

is there an adjective that she can use in front of the word model like catwalk, fashion, catalog, print which doesn't conjure images of tits and arse?

That is just lending succour to the idea model is a euphemism.

Is being a 'walker' in a stage performance the equivalent of being an extra on T.V? Nobody would think an extra was particularly open to stripping or glamour modelling. When you're just starting out you have to do low grade work to get experience and build up your portfolio but it still doesn't mean you're open to anything tangentially related. It's just a career where (unless you're very lucky) you start at the bottom and work your way up. It's the equivalent of getting a job as a busboy aged 16 and working your way up to manager of the restaurant. In neither career path is stripping required or expected, and if negative stereotypes are encountered you just meet them with a steely glare.

The difficulty in challenging the view is that in many cases it is correct: "model" is often a euphemism for "glamour model", "dancer" is often a euphemism for "stripper", and dance companies and orchestras (I don't know about acting) are often hotbeds of shagging (not all of them, and not everyone, of course!)

I'm not seeing the relevance of the first part of your comment to the second part.

I also think one would have to be pretty thick not to realise from the context when "model" is a euphemism for "glamour model". I assume model means the non sexploitation variety unless it is obviously otherwise.

I'm puzzled what the problem is with walked parts; almost every ballet has these.

I've not really heard that and my OH works in performing arts so we have a lot of performer friends.

Is your daughter in with a proper college etc.? All sounds a bit dodgy!

"Is your daughter in with a proper college etc.? All sounds a bit dodgy!" She is doing a trinity level 6 qualification at one of the top 4 Mt colleges in the country so hopefully yes

Hang on I'll get a video for one of the colleges (not hers)