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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"I don't have a gender. I don't see why I should have a gender"

31 replies

drspouse · 02/08/2017 19:54

Feminist statement or the ultimate in denying that biological sex means anything?

This is the statement of a young adult I have come across, who appears more male than female but I think is probably biologically female. Of course, wearing stereotypically male clothing does not mean you are no longer biologically female As Any Fule No.

Discuss!

OP posts:
Seachangeshell · 02/08/2017 20:04

Feminist statement from the face of it. The statement she? made doesn't say anything about biological sex. Gender is a made up thing.
Or the person could be confusing sex and gender, which many people seem to do these days, in which case she might mean that she doesn't see why she should be male or female. In that case, it wouldn't be a feminist statement, just one that doesn't make sense.

AssassinatedBeauty · 02/08/2017 20:05

They may well not have a gender but they certainly have a sex. Did they have any thoughts about biology, or was it all about identity being more important than physical reality?

RiverTam · 02/08/2017 20:07

Gender is not the same as biological sex, so that's not necessarily what this person is meaning - however, they need to understand that biological sex most certainly does have meaning and that certain things are rightly segregated according to sex - but not gender. So she can be as masculine as she likes, but that doesn't stop her from being female (a woman).

hingedspeculum · 02/08/2017 20:12

If the person accepts the relationship between biological sex and gender as the social construct interpreting sex as a stereotypical phenotype, then that is basically a core tenant of feminism in understanding women's oppression and disadvantage.

If the person equates gender with sex, then I think I would say that is incompatible with feminism.

glenthebattleostrich · 02/08/2017 20:31

I reject gender and refuse to acknowledge or accept it. I'm a woman because of my sex.

user1498662042 · 02/08/2017 20:38

Or the person could be confusing sex and gender, which many people seem to do these days

What is the difference? Is sex just the anatomical fact of your bits and bobs and gender everything else? I'm not sure I get the distinction myself.

Xenophile · 02/08/2017 20:46

I don't see why anyone should have a gender role dumped on them either.

It's quite a different statement than "I am agender" is, so I'd say it is probably a feminist statement, yes.

AdalindSchade · 02/08/2017 20:48

I'm guessing this person means they don't 'identify' as male or female, which is post modern nonsense. If she means that she's an adult human female with no innate sense of gender identity then that's a radical feminist position. But I doubt it.

scaryclown · 02/08/2017 20:52

She is saying I'm a person not a role. Probably also 'i' m a good me but a bad Rachel from Friends, or porn star or 50s housewife or hair straightened contour made up clone' which is fine by me!

OR in 80s language, I'm not a Sharon or a Tracey, or a Kev

RiverTam · 02/08/2017 20:54

Sex = male/female - biology, innate, objective

Gender = masculine/feminine - societal, imposed, subjective

hingedspeculum · 02/08/2017 21:08

User, gender is the cultural and societal expectations of what it means to be a man (adult male) or woman (adult female).

Datun · 03/08/2017 00:57

user

The feminist viewpoint point is that gender is a spectrum of masculinity to femininity. A way of looking, acting or behaving in a socially constructed stereotypical way. It's socially constructed because gender roles vary across time, country and culture.

Since women have historically been assigned a feminine role, it plays to those who wish to take advantage.

Because it is a supporting role. It says you must be fuckable, sexually available, nurturing, compliant, a good housewife. Traditionally women were not thought capable of an education, or to hold positions of power because of their innate femininity making them unsuitable. Too feeble to be capable of voting. Considered hysterical and then incarcerated if they wanted to leave their husbands, etc.

So imposing the female gender stereotypical role on women is oppressive. The idea that it is innate is used as leverage. It is used as a tool and for every stereotypical feminine characteristic I can give you hundred women who don't have it.

And gender politics, particularly trans politics, enforces it. It says that gender is not imposed, it is innate. A man can innately feel as though he is a woman. He will present in a feminine way, act in feminine way, feel 'womanly' and therefore that must mean he is a woman. Not a feminine man. God forbid.

Which merely underpins the notion that (gender) roles are set, concrete and solid and women have them. All of them designed to make women take a supportive role. Whilst men get on with the real business of leadership, power and politics which is innate to them.

Sex on the other hand is innate It's identifiable, verifiable.

Women are oppressed because of their biology. Stereotypical gender roles are the means by which it's done.

Trans ideology completely contradicts things like gender fluidity though. Hence the lack of logic.

Seachangeshell · 03/08/2017 10:31

user. I agree that it's confusing.
Some things that are classed as 'masculine ' or 'feminine ' are influenced by biology. For example, women are more likely to have more 'delicate ' facial features and men are more likely to have square jaws, prominent brows. Curvy hips are 'feminine Big muscles are 'masculine'.
But not all women and men have these 'feminine' and 'masculine' characteristics.
And as for the personality stuff- that's influenced mainly by society's expectations. I don't think I have the stereotypical personality of a woman, even though I look very feminine.
Hormones play a part too, but I don't know enough about all of this stuff. Need to do some more reading but alas I'm addicted to fiction!

whoputthecatout · 03/08/2017 11:58

Women are oppressed because of their biology. Stereotypical gender roles are the means by which it's done.

That sums it up perfectly Datun.

I don't find it confusing at all and nor should anyone with a basic grasp of biology and how society works.

Sex is real. It is objective. Gender is an amorphous will-o-the-wisp word devoid of any exact meaning. TAs use it to obfuscate a very simple concept to their own advantage and have assiduously worked to bring it in to common parlance as interchangeable with sex.

Sex has remained real and objective in humans from the beginning of time (not referring here to genuine intersex individuals). Gender is a label that varies over time, place and culture. It is what ever the user of the word says it is - a bit like Humpty Dumpty in Alice through the Looking Glass. "“it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

AdelicaArundel · 03/08/2017 12:14

Datun that is a brilliant summary.
I now get why the trans lobby gets hung up on "pink brains" BS- it allows them to pretend that gender is innate.

Datun · 03/08/2017 12:37

AdelicaArundel

Unpacking what gender means, requires an awareness of it in your own life. Funnily enough women are only too well aware of what it means to them.

But you still get women who talk about the division of house work, lack of promotion, mansplaining, etc, who, at the same time, will then agree with the trans-ideology.

I can see how it happens. Women are socialised to be nice and inclusive. Compliant.

A soon as you see it though, it's like a light bulb moment on steroids.

AdelicaArundel · 03/08/2017 13:36

Yes Datun- I agree that women know what it means but we are very rarely given the language to explain what that feeling is. I've found this board so helpful to figure out the language to describe the inequality that's everywhere.

I had written a longer post, which included the bit about the female gender including attributes such as being "nice", hearing the other point of view, spending time on developing, maintaining and repairing personal bonds (time that could be spent on "masculine" things like making money and becoming powerful).

There's another thread on here about the moments when it all falls into place...it's a bloody awful moment actually. Realising that for so many men, women are disposable, interchangeable pieces of meat. Like a pet dog.

Where is parenting going wrong to allow men to grow up with those attitudes?

Datun · 03/08/2017 13:58

AdelicaArundel

Exactly. You've put it better than me.

Although, if mumsnet is anything to go by, people are waking up to the damage that gender does. Not just the FWR board.

drspouse · 03/08/2017 14:15

Interesting... I haven't asked the person in question about biological sex.

OP posts:
Datun · 03/08/2017 14:17

drspouse

If you do, let us know what they say.

drspouse · 03/08/2017 15:58

I don't know them that well so probably won't get the chance!

OP posts:
VestalVirgin · 06/08/2017 23:11

I think it is a radfem statement.

It is how I usually phrase my rejection of gender. (Despite that being inaccurate - I do not want a gender, but society forces one on me anyway, so in a way, I have one. Even though I don't see why I should)

"agender", "nonbinary" and "bigender" and all the others still are genders, the people who identify as such believe that people should have genders. The "I don't see why I should have a gender" sounds pretty rad to me.

aprilanne · 06/08/2017 23:18

this rubbish has gone to far christ we will be letting people declare themselves alien next .you are either male or female end of story .if you change sex then yes i get that that is different but this no gender this is just a load of twaddle trying not to swear but i do get irratated at this

VestalVirgin · 06/08/2017 23:25

if you change sex then yes i get that that is different

You are aware that humans can't change sex, are you? It just doesn't happen.

... have you read the thread? You totally should.

Elendon · 07/08/2017 09:21

we will be letting people declare themselves alien next

I often feel like an alien.