Gender beyond the Binary

[AssignedMentalAtBirth]

www.theguardian.com/world/video/2017/jul/28/gender-beyond-the-binary-video

Head explosion #43

I gave up about half way through. Basically a bunch of above averagely attractive people who like to dress up and wear make up but need to be more special than other above averagely attractive people who like to dress up and wear make up (like me for example)

Dressing up and wearing make up is fun. It does not of itself make you special or oppressed or interesting.

I did agree with the person who said "gender neutral" means men's and boy's stuff.

Havnt watched the video

But isnt creating more gender definitions compartmentalising and defining people

Yes, I agree gender neutral is masculine.

But masculine isn't men's and boy's stuff.

Nor is feminine fluffy pink and being stupid with lot's of piercings.

Feminine is being strong, resilient and intelligent.

Feminine is being strong, resilient and intelligent.

According to ... what definition?

Authentic womanhood is all those things. But "feminine" is usually used to describe what is expected of women under patriarchy. I.e. gender.

I once read an article (which I sadly cannot find anymore) that stated that men don't have a gender. That gender is something men put on women before they consume us, like a piece of cheese is put on a bread.

Now, there are expectations of how men behave in patriarchy, but the article made, as I recall, some good points as to why this is not comparable to feminine gender role.

So, no gender = male gender would make sense.

(Sorry if this was about something in the video and that's why I don't understand. Can't watch videos on those topics at the moment, causes too much anxiety)

What's so frustrating is that their analysis of the problem is actually pretty good. I think most feminists would agree with how the person with the mauve lipstick describes gender as systemically oppressive. But the eye-rolling, head-against-a-brick-wall stuff is their response: they really seem to believe that an individual can opt out of gender at will. Do they also think that a black person could opt out of racism by declaring themselves white or "race-fluid"?

I also found it sad that some, if not all, of them are clearly gay, yet clearly didn't feel able to "admit" that - hence the gender fluid bollocks.

What creative people to have identified "gender beyond the binary" - ie astonishingly there are quite a number of people who don't feel they want to conform to either extreme of sexist imposition of male and female stereotypes.

Next they will be telling us about this great new activity they have invented called "sexual intercourse"

Bless.

Do they also think that a black person could opt out of racism by declaring themselves white or "race-fluid"?

YES! This^

I just watched the clip. The people in it are just young people to me, they seem nice enough. I find how they feel about gender and choose to identify quite interesting and challenging.

We should all be able to dress/act/be whatever we want. Gender stereotypes really bother me. I struggle with seeing men and women seeming restricted by stereotypes, and wish people could be themselves more.

My instinctive reaction to the people in this clip is to wish they would be themselves, but as whatever sex they were born. Wouldn't that help to widen our view of what a man/woman should be like?

I suppose they are choosing to opt out of the whole system, rather than challenge the social norms. Which is their choice, and I imagine not an easy one either. But I think I would prefer more people to challenge the norms, to say 'I am a woman' and get on with being non-stereotypical.

Otherwise it feels like they are agreeing with stereotypes.

I'm redefining feminine Vestal

For myself. (was being sarcastic).

But what is sexual intercourse?

Can someone explain?

Has anyone who was at university from say the early 80s onwards and/or been involved with or interested in the creative arts and / or spent any time at all in any reasonable sized western European city not come across people exactly like this bunch? I have- they describe themselves they way this lot do. They were either gay or bi or if straight just camp and themselves.

Sorry I meant didn't describe themselves the way this lot do.

Mimble
"My instinctive reaction to the people in this clip is to wish they would be themselves, but as whatever sex they were born. Wouldn't that help to widen our view of what a man/woman should be like?"

Welcome to 2nd Wave feminism. Gender is bollocks.' Sex is science

No. But neither have my children and two have been in university in the 2010s They think it's all shite but are keen to express that they are trans positive.

No I agree Lass but the hippy/punk/grunge/emu didn't have billionaires and big pharma behind them trying to change rights of women

Pink hair, pins in noses and The Sex Pistols didn't do any harm

It isn't just that simple to opt out of your sex, and be non-binary/gender-fluid or whatever the descriptor is. It's how other people perceive you that determines how they treat you. Those young people will be seen as gay men, lesbians, straight women, straight men etc etc by other people, and possibly discriminated against as a result. No one can possibly know that they're non-binary/gender-fluid unless they get the chance to actually mention it. It then depends on the person they mention it to actually deciding to treat them differently as a result.

My mum is 92 and has taught all her working life. She has known all these children in some form or another. It's nothing new to her. It's not a surprise.

She does say that it changes according to what's hip and happening but it's simply a fashion that ebbs and flows.

What has never changed, according to her, is women never getting equal pay and men stopping being violent towards women. That's the same old, same old. Her life, like mine, has spanned two centuries.

Well put Elendon

I didn't grow up in a feminist household; I didn't have any "strong" female family members let alone feminist role models, it was quite the opposite. I think that if I was finding feminism as a 16 year old or as an undergraduate now, then I might find the notion of being gender neutral as quite attractive. I think for a lot of young women today, they get to an age where they actively start to feel the constraints of the patriarchy and want to reject gender. But in rejecting gender, the path isn't just to gender criticism it forks off into this gender neutrality.

I find it impossible to understand the incongruence of being assigned male at birth and by virtue of that maligning over how "femininity wasn't assigned to me". They also say that they are reclaiming their agency over their body, as if there is a gender seating of femininity to their body, but just not their genitals... Unfortunately for them and contrary to the "well have you even had your chromosomes checked" trope that's being levied at this biological reality, being male, is being XY at a biochemical level throughout your entire body (I believe second to the gonads, the highest expression of Y-linked genes are in the spleen and skeletal muscle).

I do resonate with what the individual with the purple hair and lipstick says (I won't say she, but I didn't catch what they defined themselves as) about wanting to remove themselves from anything feminine because it's associated with weakness. I was a complete tomboy and actively rejected anything pink because of the association. I'm just saddened that that rejection of femininity doesn't lead to the strengthening of how deplorable it is to oppress and disadvantage women based on their biology, but instead stick on some alternative eyeshadow and lipstick and think you're challenging things.