What about women who want to stay at home and be home makers?

[Tumbleweed101]

Has the fight to get women better educations and into the workplace failed those who are happy with a more traditional role?

I'm just curious as there are more and more women who want to stay home with their babies and toddlers being pushed back into going work because that's 'more productive for them and society'.

Have we taken away the choice for those women in the fight for work?

I agree we should all have the opportunity for good educations, decent pay, flexible working for everyone ... but has this push added towards a society where two wages are needed to run one household and babies encouraged into childcare institutions rather than at home with a parent?

Has the government slowly twisted what women want/need into something to benefit them instead? Ie more people to give taxes and children raised by state standards instead of family traditions?

This is something that I think about a lot. Since having dc I have worked full time, part time and been a sahm. I much prefer being at home with my children, but this makes me financially dependent on dh which doesn't feel like a very feminist position!

I have decided that despite the financial dependence I would still rather be a sahm, at least while the dc are young. I might have felt differently about this if I'd had a great career beforehand, but as it is I'm not losing much by having a few years out.

I would think that in a truly feminist society, all families would be able to choose whether a parent stayed at home or both worked. There would be an even split between mothers and fathers staying at home because women would have the same earning potential as men, and childcare would not automatically be "women's work".

I feel about this issue the way I feel about women changing their names when they get married. It can only really be a feminist choice when men start to make the same choice in any kind of significant numbers. Totally agree with OnlyHere that childcare and housework are seen as 'women's stuff'- not even 'work', but just 'what women do', what we're put on earth to do, no biggie I don't think there are many men who are grateful to their stay-at-home wives for giving them the opportunity to continue in full-time work. I just don't think they see it that way

Lotta, if my friends are anything to go by they really don't and see their income very much as their money. I have always worked bar 2x mat leave but I know my DH would welcome working part-time if we could afford it as a household but we can't. I think in an ideal world we would both work four days and have the children a day each - perhaps that is something we should all be aiming for.

"I would think that in a truly feminist society, all families would be able to choose whether a parent stayed at home or both worked."

but you can choose. I know couples where there's a SAHD and couples who mix part time and contract work in order to share childcare.

not sure what OP means by "children raised by state standards".

I'd like to see a world where both parents worked part time, say 3 days a week each and it didn't hold back careers too drastically. Just a bit of treading water for a few years for both men and women.

I don't see it as being financially dependant as looking after the home and children has value.(look at nursery/nanny fees) but I do think a stay at home parent needs to acknowledge their choice to stay at home depends on their partner sacrificing their family time to support that (they may be happy, they may just do because men are kids expected to work, they may be a bit sad about it)

I also have some hangups about how many adults I know have fantastic relationships with their Dad's who did very little for them as a child in term of hands on care (Obviously providing, food shelter and security is a big contribution) and they find their mum a bit dull/irritating. It just seems a bit unjust.

The gold standard for me would be seeing a society where it's not a big deal for men to play a completely equal role in child-rearing, both partners working part-time.

I do find the OP's post judgemental, implying that wohp's are giving their children an inferior upbringing rather than via 'family tradition'.

Women don't necessarily want/need to be at home rearing children- it would have driven me bonkers - and I personally never wanted to rely on a man for keeping a roof over my head.

I think you may be on to something re two incomes needed to pay for a family now. It used to be that new matter how menial the job the man had it was possible for the woman to stay at home.

By state standards I mean that children are raised by ofsted and government ideals - school readiness for example - rather than how a parent at home would raise them. There are a lot of activities in a nursery for instance but the children don't get to see and value at home 'work' - they might help with making beds, cooking, shopping, meeting people on trips out etc at home but in a nursery they have different activities that don't give them the same experience of being part of a wider community. Can't explain it exactly how I want to 🤔. Nothing wrong with childcare but it is different to raising them at home.

Just feel that if we could all still run a home and family on one wage there would be more choices rather than less. Some women are now having to do 'everything' which has added more pressure not less.

Seen so many threads on the net in general where women are getting frazzled by rushing to work, childcare, homemaking, cooking and if they want to take a career break to care for families they are quickly told that makes them unproductive members of society. As if raising a family isn't worth anything.

I'm not judging parents who work. I am a single working mum so am in the same situation as many others. When I was still with my partner we worked back to back shifts so one of us could be at home but that meant we never saw eachother,which I feel contributed to our eventual split. If one of us had been home to raise the family things would have been smoother, the house would have been more organised etc.

The issue is that what women do is not valued. Be it as a SAHM or WOHM.

SAHM are seen as lazy and entitled, especially once the dcs are at school. Or they're trophies for their partners. I was gobsmacked once as a friend told me merrily that her dh loved the idea of her being his little homemaker

WOHM are seen as cruel for leaving their dcs in the care of others or money grabbing etc. Etc.

Our society really needs to accept that a) it takes a village to raise a child so everyone should play a part in that. Not just the mother and b) that we aren't set up very well to support families anymore as a society. Our children are quite literally the future.

I haven't yet formed my thoughts on this but it is rare to see anyone openly question a father's choices.

". It can only really be a feminist choice when men start to make the same choice in any kind of significant numbers. "

But why? Why on earth should a choice by a woman/group of women need to be validated by men doing the same thing?

That sounds as if 'what men do' and 'how men behave' is the gold standard to which women will forever longingly aspire, but never quite achieve.

"...has this push added towards a society where two wages are needed to run one household and babies encouraged into childcare institutions rather than at home with a parent?*"
*
I think you're right, OP.

It seems to me that although women have made gains in the workplace, men often don’t take on the work in the home that women used to do. The work we’ve always done in the home has never been valued in the same way. Looking after a household and raising children is seen as lesser than work outside the home.

In other countries (The Netherlands in particular), its very common for men with young families to work part time. It’s also more common to see men out pushing buggies and picking their kids up.

However, I don’t think we can really hark back to a golden era where we could “afford” to be single income families.

The vast majority of women have for centuries done paid work (contributed to the family income) whilst raising children and looking after a home though - it’s only in small sections of society and short periods of time that “traditional” for mothers has been raising your own children and not doing paid work. I don’t disagree with the arguments here about valuing women’s (paid and unpaid) work and the importance of raising children, but it’s also important not to perpetuate stereotypes and ignore women’s work ourselves

It was really with the industrial revolution that work moved entirely outside the home and we moved from a majority rural to a majority urban based economy. Suddenly families were dictated to by clocks and rigid timetables and work that had been shared at home became even more strongly gendered. We all know our history and there is nothing inherently "natural" about our current set up. We are all trying to respond the best we can to the economy we find ourselves in. The main thing is much of the work women do is unpaid and unacknowledged. When more women went to work from the 1960s onwards instead of freeing up more cash for a family prices went up, so now it takes two full time workers to provide a decent standard of living and somehow we have to shoehorn pregnancy, breastfeeding and raising children into less available hours.

I should clarify to say that the caring work women provided for their own families remained unpaid and gendered female. Historically any area of work which is female dominated is generally considered of lower status and paid less.

I'd like to see a world where both parents worked part time, say 3 days a week each and it didn't hold back careers too drastically. Just a bit of treading water for a few years for both men and women.

^ I agree.

I also have some hangups about how many adults I know have fantastic relationships with their Dad's who did very little for them as a child in term of hands on care (Obviously providing, food shelter and security is a big contribution) and they find their mum a bit dull/irritating. It just seems a bit unjust.

^ I think this is more due to previous generations having the attitude that the man was "head of the family" and made all the decisions, and also, the woman was often less highly educated. Nowadays, IME, the parents are usually more equal partners. I am a SAHM currently but am more highly educated than my husband, and we make all decisions jointly. I will return to work once all the kids are at school.

Interesting thread and i must admit my own feelings about it are not clear. I do think that as a society we still have a hangup about glorifying things that are traditionally male - paid structured work, busyness, self-centredness? Hand in hand goes the devaluing things in society that would be considered feminine - nurturing, community, home making. Really what humans should be looking for within themselves and within society is a healthy balance between the feminine and masculine and equal respect for those roles. I think we are a long way from that kind you..

I am a feminist and always intended to go back to work after having my children. It didn’t work out that way - for many reasons. I was offered redundancy when my charity sector employer restructured as my ML came to an end and our DS seemed beside himself when left at nursery - to the extent that the staff asked me to come back. Turns out he has ASD.

Being there for my children honestly felt right for me. I found it fascinating in many ways. Practically a return to work would have been difficult given my DSs needs and the fact that we had no GPs to help out. Financially, it was a choice we could make as my partner earned enough (I didn’t). Both DCs have been in school now for a number of years.

Our lifestyle is based around me being at home - minimal stuff to do at weekends as I do it in the week. I help my DS with school and homework/revision including working on materials etc during the day. We have dogs that I walk. Cooking is done from scratch and I have a vegetable garden. I was able to help at my DC’s school (very useful when you have a child with SENs) and I was able to do the 2 hr school pick up enabling my DS to go to a school that supported him.

I used to have a professional job, was well respected and now at times I do feel unfulfilled. But my DH has never behaved in any way other than seeing us as a partnership. He has acknowledged that baby and childcare is more demanding than his office based work. When he is at home, he shares childcare/cooking/ washing etc (although most is done). Money is in a joint account obviously. This set up works for us.It isn’t perfect, but the only childcare that would work for my DS would be a nanny, and quite honestly, my earning power would scarcely cover the cost.

but you can choose. I know couples where here's a SAHD and couples who mix part time and contract work in order to share childcare.

I don't think this is entirely true. Many people can't afford to have one parent at home. Typically the man is going to earn more so if you are in a position to choose to have a SAHP it's likely to fall to the woman. To truly be able to choose, families need to able to get by on one income, and men and women need the same earning potential. For some this is reality, but most it isn't unfortunately.

Interesting point. I think you're right that an unintended consequence has been the removal or reduction in choice.
Myself and DH both work 4 day weeks. This works well for us and we're lucky in that regard (I'd be a crap SAHM and enormous respect to anyone who does this, especially with multiple little darlings!) I really do think what we should be aiming for as a society is for each family unit, whatever form that takes, to be able to make the choice that's right for them (whether that's SAHM, SAHD or whatever). Sadly I think we're a way off that.

I have my master degree.... I stay home with my children. My degrees are in early childhood education and child psychology so I am educated to know the first few years of your child’s life are very important in terms of attachments and their inner working model. I stay home BECAUSE I am educated. This is not a failure in the slightest.

I should definitely add that my husband chooses to work from home for this same reason. Healthy attachment to PARENTS. The world would definitely be a better place is children had equal access to both of their parents. I absolutely think two parents at home is the ideal for a family. I sometimes forget this isn’t the norm

Tumbleweed, as I see it feminism is about giving women (and maybe men) more options not less. To me you choosing to stay home and take care of your children is just as feminist as if a woman decided to go to be employed full time. A stay at home mom (mum) is just as productive as someone who is employed. Taking care of children is a very important and crucial occupation since if there weren’t people who did that the human race would die. By people taking care of children I include people who are paid to take care of other people’s children or people who take care of their own children. Raising a family is worth a great deal and a person who cares for a family is a very productive member of society.

Tom,

Everything that @Endymion1 said a hundred times over.

Some women stay home because they have every choice available and they think it's the best choice.

Some women stay home because they think it's the best option out of those available to them.

Some stay home because it's the only workable option.

Some stay home because they think they should.

We need to allow it to be a free choice, where other choices are a viable option too.

I think it would be great if it was common for parents to work 4 days, child in childcare 3 days, and then with each parent individually the other 2 days, and with both parents the other 2 days. That feels like a good natural balance, as a starting point.

Certainly a childcare bill for 2 children that is higher than the average wage doesn't allow much of a choice.