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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Myth of pink brain blue brain

83 replies

Thelilywhite · 27/07/2017 21:37

I was pleased to see this posted from the let toys be toys campaign. It's easy to read and I think useful in our gender critical arguments. I've been away and not up to speed on individual threads so thought it better to make a new one.

OP posts:
claritytobeclear · 28/07/2017 09:22

Helicopter parenting has been in existence for the last 15 odd years.

A lot of these children would have had far more of a child-centric upbringing than the previous generations.

I'm not sure it's a coincidence that when youngsters talk about their identity, they come across as ego-centric. It's rarely just an incidental part of their life. It is their life

But, surely, being more 'child-centric' is an appropriate response to the move to reject rigid stereotypes. What is good for one child, is not necessarily good for another. Yes, people get the balance wrong, but the rise of the individual surely has come about from challenging stereotypes, prejudices and preconceptions?

fakenamefornow · 28/07/2017 09:40

Has this study in monkeys been debunked?

www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/

AssassinatedBeauty · 28/07/2017 09:46

I'm sure Fine discusses it in Delusions of Gender, and points out all the issues with it.

claritytobeclear · 28/07/2017 09:46

From what I've seen of monkey social groups on TV, gender roles seem very defined. It does not mean they could not adapt, just have not.

AssassinatedBeauty · 28/07/2017 09:57

Yes, chapter 11 pg 123 ish of Delusions of Gender if you happen to have a copy to hand.

NoLoveofMine · 28/07/2017 09:59

Jihebtseksmetezels I take your point and it is probably often the case but there are plenty of teenage girls who aren't bothered about boyfriends or being attractive to boys. I know of a number of schools which have feminist groups, my own included. Having said this I do realise these schools aren't reflective of most.

I'm also well aware of the reaction being a feminist gets from quite a number of boys (though not all as I have a few good male friends who are supportive).

NoLoveofMine · 28/07/2017 10:01

But it flies in the face of the assertion that this generation wants to deconstruct gender.

I agree. I find it quite baffling that on the one hand many will say gender stereotyping, roles etc are outdated and limiting then on the other support anyone being able to "identify as a woman" and that being enough for them to be one for the most spurious of reasons seemingly always around gender.

Datun · 28/07/2017 10:04

Raising children child centrically, is just that. You can either reinforce or not reinforce, or simply not have it on your radar at all . It doesn't dictate the way you're going to raise them.

Yes, people get the balance wrong, but the rise of the individual surely has come about from challenging stereotypes, prejudices and preconceptions?

What has the 'rise of the individual' achieved, apart from a difference in clothing and appearance? And a determination that your self expression must, at all costs, be validated.

So I use the correct pronouns and recognise your right to self expression, then what?

Campaigning to encourage girls into stem subjects, is actually doing something. Encouraging boys to cook for themselves, sew up their own clothes, etc, dismantles the roles dictated by the notion of gender stereotypes.

Because whilst you have millennials becoming non-binary and saying they reject things, again, I don't see any real effect happening. Other than an insistence on respect and validation. (Albeit not just for themselves, but for other people's identity, too).

And yet at exactly the same time, the rise of transgenderism is actively reinforcing gender stereotyping.

The notion of a lady brain.

One can pontificate endlessly about concept of transgenderism, but in reality most transwomen will embrace the notion of 'femininity' as much as possible to express their 'inner woman'. But only the bits that they themselves find attractive. Would be great if they maintained they were still male, but no, this desire for femininity must mean they are female.

I see a high level of attention seeking in both these strands of self identity. It has always been my feeling that if someone craves attention, there's generally a good reason for it.

Could it not be that a child centric upbringing leaves a void when they suddenly go out into the world to, say, university? Particularly for the millennial kids who change their gender identity on a regular basis.

Datun · 28/07/2017 10:06

fakenamefornow

That study has been around on here before. I don't understand how a preference for boys toys can be innate, when those boys toys have only been invented in the last 70 years.

NoLoveofMine · 28/07/2017 10:10

Also the number of children who don't conform to playing with the toys ascribed to their gender is so great, despite parents being pushed towards buying specific ones with marketing and so forth, it's clearly nonsense. I always loved playing with toy cars and other toys which I've only more recently discovered some think are "boys' toys" Hmm and I'm far from an anomaly. One of my brothers also did, the other had no interest. It's ridiculous to suggest this is determined by sex.

claritytobeclear · 28/07/2017 10:24

Datun

Raising children child centrically, is just that. You can either reinforce or not reinforce, or simply not have it on your radar at all . It doesn't dictate the way you're going to raise them

I don't think what I was saying, being child-centric child as a response to rejecting stereotypes, counteracts this. Rejecting stereotypes can mean the qualities they dictate can either be encouraged or not, it just means that the stereotypes are not what are dictating those qualities. For example someone could acknowledge that not all women want to be mothers and that this is fine (not 'unnatural' or anything), thus rejecting some traditional stereotypes, but equally recognise and encourage their daughter's desire to become a mother.

Campaigning to encourage girls into stem subjects, is actually doing something. Encouraging boys to cook for themselves, sew up their own clothes, etc, dismantles the roles dictated by the notion of gender stereotypes.

Equally, allowing boys and girls the freedom follow the interests they have chosen, is not doing nothing. If these interests are not dictated by gender stereotypes, they are just as valid to feminism, even though they might fall into traditional gender stereotypical ones for their sex. Surely traditional female roles should not be devalued because they are traditionally female? Surely these roles have no requirement to be validated by males choosing to do them?

Could it not be that a child centric upbringing leaves a void when they suddenly go out into the world to, say, university?

I think this could be true. Individualism can be lonely for people.

NoLoveofMine · 28/07/2017 10:31

Equally, allowing boys and girls the freedom follow the interests they have chosen

That freedom doesn't exist at the moment due to gender stereotyping and roles persisting. This is shown by the fact that in single sex schools take up of such subjects is completely different: girls choosing STEM subjects in high numbers and boys choosing arts subjects in similarly high numbers.

"Traditional female roles" are not "female roles", they're just ascribed to women and girls by a society which seeks to preserve the status quo.

claritytobeclear · 28/07/2017 10:42

That freedom doesn't exist at the moment due to gender stereotyping and roles persisting.

So how do we attain freedom, in this context, Datun? Surely not by devaluing genuine choices, ignoring genuine abilities or devaluing them, just because they fall into traditional gender stereotypes? That is not freedom.

Single sex schools might be good in creating a bit of a bubble where girls frequently ignore gender stereotypes and specialise in STEM subjects and boys in the arts. However they do nothing towards bridging any divide between the sexes, whereby the opposite sex is seen as something 'other'. If we want more understanding and compassion between the sexes surely being able to coexist in the same room is a start.

claritytobeclear · 28/07/2017 10:43

Sorry, my last post should have been addressed to Nolove

NoLoveofMine · 28/07/2017 10:45

My point was about how stereotypes are holding people back and influencing choice making it not a free one rather than on the merits or otherwise of single sex schools. It's not "devaluing abilities" to say that gender stereotypes (and imposition of gender generally) is holding children back from a young age and pushing them towards certain subjects/behaviours.

claritytobeclear · 28/07/2017 10:49

Nolove, no of course stereotypes are restrictive and reductive. However purposely seeking to encourage opposite stereotypes being seen as a higher priority than individual autonomy could potentially be just as restrictive and reductive. Opposite stereotypes are still stereotypes. This was my point. There needs to be balance.

Datun · 28/07/2017 10:51

I completely agree in allowing both boys and girls to choose roles. But until those roles are not dictated by gender stereotypes, they are not decided on in a vacuum.

NoLoveofMine · 28/07/2017 10:53

There was a documentary I've mentioned on this board before a couple of years ago by Professor Alice Roberts featuring a visit by her to a mixed secondary school. She asked the pupils if any of them were considering STEM subjects - none of the girls were. When she asked them why answers included "they're too hard", "they're more subjects for boys", "girls aren't really good at them", "challenging subjects are for the boys". When asked to describe what they pictured a scientist as, all the girls and boys said a man. To have had that attitude ingrained is certainly not giving them a free choice.

claritytobeclear · 28/07/2017 10:53

I completely agree in allowing both boys and girls to choose roles. But until those roles are not dictated by gender stereotypes, they are not decided on in a vacuum

Agreed, Datun. But the only way to have a vacuum is for there to be nothing around, no culture, no one else's influence. That's not going to happen is it? Well, I wouldn't want it to.

NoLoveofMine · 28/07/2017 10:54

I'm not sure who's seeking to do that claritytobeclear. The current situation is definitely restrictive and reductive.

claritytobeclear · 28/07/2017 10:55

She asked the pupils if any of them were considering STEM subjects - none of the girls were. When she asked them why answers included "they're too hard", "they're more subjects for boys", "girls aren't really good at them", "challenging subjects are for the boys". When asked to describe what they pictured a scientist as, all the girls and boys said a man.

I went to a mixed school. That is not how I felt or my female peers.

NoLoveofMine · 28/07/2017 10:57

I don't entirely see how that proves anything when it evidently is the case for many.

claritytobeclear · 28/07/2017 11:00

Because you just mentioned one documentary which included one visit, Nomine. My point is mixed education does not necessarily reinforce gender stereotypes. It does not have to be this way. Mixed education is not the problem. It is the way that mixed education is delivered that can be the problem or solution.

claritytobeclear · 28/07/2017 11:01

Sorry, Nolove.

NoLoveofMine · 28/07/2017 11:04

I don't think mixed education is the problem and ideally I'd like there to be no need for single sex education and all schools to be mixed. The problem is gender and gender stereotyping which starts almost from birth and in my opinion is becoming further entrenched at the moment.

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