So: the flipside of the 'teaching your daughter how to keep herself safe at uni' conversation

[Effzeh]

So I've raised two strong-minded, largely sensible now-adult daughters, and have managed to have that 'don't get so drunk you don't know what you're doing' convo without in any way implying that assault victims are to blame for what happened to them, etc etc. I have the radfem T-shirt, I can do common-sense without victim-blaming.

I'm now musing on how the equivalent convo looks when you are sending your newly-fledged 18yo ds out into the world. The cliche of 'don't teach girls how to avoid rape, teach boys not to rape' is too simplistic to be of direct practical use - I think it encourages boys to think that rapists are the bad guys 'out there', rather than teaching them how to apply the logic of consent to their own behaviour.

So what do we tell our sons? I'm talking sensible, thoughtful, well-socialised boys, who are used to being around women with strong opinions and who have a baseline understanding of sexism and male privilege.

My current mental rolodex for this convo contains the following broad themes (and yes, the boy in question is definitely heterosexual, fwiw):

-Don't get so drunk that you don't know what's going on. Just don't. For your sake and for other people's. If you know you've got to that point without intending to, take yourself home and sleep it off.
-If other blokes around you are getting fighting drunk, walk away.
-Remember that most women are not as stroppy and bolshy as your sisters socialised to please men, so be very aware of body language and make sure that they are genuinely ok with what's happening, not just telling you what they think you want to hear.
-You will encounter girls who are too drunk to know what they are doing, and who may throw themselves at you and proposition you. Do not get sexual with a girl who is pissed out of her head, find her friends and make them take her home. Failing that, walk her home yourself and once you know she's safe, leave.
-If your mates are hitting on a girl and she doesn't seem okay with it, step in to try and head it off.
-If you find yourself getting sexual with someone you don't really know (as in you only met them half an hour ago, you have never had a sober conversation with them, you don't know their full name, what subject they're doing, where they live, their taste in music and what football team they support), that is a giant waving red flag that you should probably stop right there.
-Condoms are your responsibility. Every time, all the time. Never mind if a girl tells you she's on the pill, do not have unprotected sex unless you are hunky-dory with the idea of paying child support alongside paying off your student loan for the next 18 years. And no, I'm not currently in the market for looking after a baby or for paying childcare costs.
-A good sexual experience for a woman is not one that consists of a bloke putting his willy in her and thrusting till he comes. Most women will not come from PIV sex alone. Do your research, spend time together, build up to it, find out what works for her.
-Did I mention condoms? Sexual health clinics give them out for free.

I'd be really interested to hear what other people have said to their sons, what worked, what didn't, what you think of it all. The 'teaching your daughters to stay safe' convo is such a staple of female conversations, whether online or IRL, but no-one talks about what we say to our sons.

Get him to understand that consent is too low a bar to set for himself, he should be looking for enthusiastic participation

show him Joe Biden's recent speech about locker room talk

For ours we advised (with variable success)

Keep your penis safely inside your trousers until you meet someone you are prepared to have a baby with.
If you find yourself unable to do that for goodness sake use a condom.
Avoid drunken sex unless you are in a relationship - it is unsatisfactory and will undermine your confidence and puts you both at risk.
Unless they actually say " Yes, I really want to make love to you" then assume they are at best ambivalent and don't go there".
Young men are at greater risk of being victims of crime than young women. Avoid high risk situations. Walk home with friends or get a taxi (we'll pay, if necessary). Choose where you drink wisely and avoid the 'rough' places late at night. Choose who you drink with wisely.
Learn to descalate confrontation. Walk away if tensions rise. Always have an escape route.
If you have casual sex you are likely to have an STD - get it checked at gum clinic. Don't kiss or allow intimacy with anyone with a cold sore.
Call us at any hour if you are frightened or worried.
Work hard.

I would say "don't be a dick".

That does cover most things, tbf. But there is perhaps scope for defining that for them with some specifics taht they might not come up with on their own.

There are some really interesting thoughts on this thread, thank you!

I'll tell both my son and my daughter that sex is only ok if both parties want it and are capable of making that decision. I'm not sure the conversation will be much different with my son than with my daughter. Bottom line is that sex must be underpinned by respect for your partner. I'm not naïve enough to think they will only ever have loving sex, but even a quickie with someone you've only just met should be respectful of the wishes and preferences of both sexual partners.

Crumbs I'd say your advice is spot on!

The "work hard" may be pushing it though!

That1950sMum, the hard work was the variable success!

is it just me feeling sad that the tea video is necessary?

how difficult is it to be sure you have a willing partner?!

I think you can talk till you're blue in the face. I'd just seriously warn against ridiculously drunk as pretty much any sensible conversations and sensible behavior goes out of the window then. I'd personally try and find some cases of convictions for lack of consent. Even if there is no way he'd behave like that normally, the power of alcohol is vicious. There's nothing so motivating as fear.

This was just posted on another thread and is excellent fairplayforwomen.com/7-reasons-guys-dont-understand-consent

I don't understand why you would wait till they go to uni. They're adults by then , surely you should have been having these conversations for years.
I taught my sons about consent, sex being a two way thing and not just for one person's pleasure, the importance of using condoms both to minimise the risk of infection and to prevent pregnancy.
And most importantly, and something that should be part of daily life, girls and women are people, human beings with rights and not just objects put on earth to service men.

That's a really good article, indominus

I don't understand why you would wait till they go to uni. They're adults by then , surely you should have been having these conversations for years. I taught my sons about consent, sex being a two way thing and not just for one person's pleasure, the importance of using condoms both to minimise the risk of infection and to prevent pregnancy.
And most importantly, and something that should be part of daily life, girls and women are people, human beings with rights and not just objects put on earth to service men.

Oh yes, for sure. Absolutely. It's just that going to uni marks the point where they will be exposed to situations that they haven't previously encountered, without the support and guidance that comes from regular daily interactions with their family. If they were living at home and came home roaring drunk, or brought a girl back to their room, or were clearly massively hungover the next morning, then I would obviously clock that adn they would know that I'd clocked it, and we could have a conversation about it. At uni the opportunity for those daily interactions aren't really there, so it suddenly seems more important to condense the important bits into bite-size chunks in the hope that it will stick in their heads at the crucial moments.

I was very fortunate at university when during a period of depression I frequently drank heavily and took risks when out and about, and came to no harm.

I was often escorted home by young men who did kind things, eg expressing concern for my wellbeing (after I was sober), contacting my friends, keeping an eye out, just being friendly without anything sexual in it.

Not sure about walking drunken girls home. Don't go alone if you do that, have some chaperones.

Always said to my son, screw consent. Hold out for sober enthusiasm. No means no. But sometimes yes isn't enough - drink - pressure from peers - emotional vunerability. And even then it's okay for he himself to say no. Always.

If you wouldn't tell your daughters how to sexually please men, think why not. And apply that to your sons.

That's literally all sex. It's the emphasis on PIV in sex Ed, the new obsession with anal. We don't need to teach our girls to be man pleasers, we need to teach them it's ok not to be

We don't teach our children to not kick puppies when they go out into the world, do we? We assume they know already, or we have so utterly failed that trying to remedy that in a hour of talking would be pointless.

I view consent the same way. Either you succeeded in raising your sons to consider women as fellow human beings, or you haven't.

The only thing I would teach boys is to be explicit about consent.

Not because I think they are not perfectly capable of reading body language and understanding implicit messages, but in order to expose rapists.

If your sons always explicitly ask for consent, then the dudes who walk around wailing that they could not possibly ever know whether a woman wants to be touched by them will look like weirdos and idiots, as it will be obvious to everyone they could just have fucking asked.

If you accept "rape culture then you should understand why you need to be explicit.
We do not live In a puppy kicking culture. Our society very explicitly rejects (visible) animal abuse bacon being the invisible side.