Identiy Politics

[AssignedMentalAtBirth]

Woo woo, this is what we are raising

what in the name of fuck will these fuckwits teach their children?

Not challenge. Win. I never see genderists winning these arguments in a fair debate. Which is why they're so fond of no platforming and smearing people they don't agree with.

Time and again you see people who won't expose themselves to alternative viewpoints as many people don't, totally floored when their beliefs are challenged.

I agree that gender is meaningless running. I would quite happily see gender off to history books. Biological sex is a real classification for the differences in humans beings and other mammals. It is also a protected characteristic but the TRAs want sex to mean nothing and gender to mean whatever you want it to be and for this to based in law. It's that that us 'TERFs' oppose

if you claim to be serious about engaging with this issue but you don't understand that gender is different from biology and that the idea of gender is very socially constructed then, with all due respect, you have not engaged very seriously with these ideas and you're just thoughtlessly shooting from the hip.

Whilst, I think, it is undoubtable gender perceptions are strongly influenced by culture, variance across different societies is testimony to this, I do believe there is some cross over as there is a complex interaction between biological and cultural influences, generally. For example different levels of sex hormones have been shown to affect behaviour, the link between testosterone and aggression and Pre-Menstrual Psychosis illustrates this, but whilst variant hormone levels might mean someone is pre disposed to certain behaviours, it does not mean engaging in these behaviours is a pre-requisite. I actually also read a study in New Scientist that noted different hormones levels amongst men in different societies and linked this to aggression. Added to this, persistent patterns of behaviour, experience and thought patterns can actually alter brain physiology and environment can affect gene expression.

So there is a complex interplay between biology and culture, nature and nurture. Thus it would follow that there might be a complex interplay between some sex determined biological differences (which might also differ between different societies) and gender expression. I don't just think all sexually determined differences are distinct enough, because there is variance within the same sex and across different cultures, to label them purely biological differences. Equally, I think, because some less distinct sex determined biological differences can be explained biologically, we cannot say they are purely cultural.

Don't get me wrong, I still think ideas of gender undoubtedly vary across societies and throughout history, thus have a strong cultural influence. However I think we are only just finding out how our biology predisposes us to all sorts of things as well as how our own choices can affect this biology throughout generations.

Where this leaves people, I don't know.

assignedmental now that is more problematic but I felt like the earlier posts were dismissive of the complexities in the argument.

venus I don't think there's anything to 'win'. Maybe it's the 'winning' and 'losing' dichotomy that stifles debate. It's like race. Race is a construct, though there are differences between people linked with skin pigmentation and their genetic legacy. However, it's wrong to not acknowledge white privilege or the rational behind black lives matter. Race and gender are constructs but they carry powerful histories and they are important parts of our identity. So when someone claims an identity that you feel is your birthright, it becomes problematic. But to dismiss the trans community out of hand and to divvy us up into more constructed groups is kind of divisive and, in my opinion unhelpful.

Maybe what we are seeing is a move away from distinct gender stereotypes affecting people's actual physiology across the generations and people now struggling to identify with traditional stereotypes and perceptions of gender but having a need to identify with something.

Problematic or not, this is the crux of the objections to trans ideology. O this subject, if you accept science over feelings and apply logic, the result is 'TERF'

Only if you think biology determines gender. That's been long disputed: "One is not born a woman, one becomes a woman." Isn't that one of the founding tenets of the feminist movement? The continued upholding of the gender binary as an unassailable biological absolute is problematic for all women and men.

clarity to be clear has put it well.

But the feminist movement surely is about challenging gender perceptions not upholding them.

Whilst I don't think gender need be abolished, I do think gender perceptions should be much more inclusive to how everybody of each sex is able express their gender. It would not be possible to say their 'gender does match sex' if gender perceptions were truly inclusive. In this context there would be no need for gender reassignment. However I don't think gender needs to be abolished because there can be a relationship between gender and a person's sex, albeit an extremely varied one.

That should be, 'their gender does not match their sex.' Typo omission.

I think that's what the quote means. That society defines womanhood and that's the problem. Absolutely, we should challenge gender and I don't know where I stand on gender reassignment surgery. It feels like a very drastic measure to take and I can't understand what it must feel like to want to do it.

That's another issue aside from gender and gender identification and one to which there are no easy answers.

Running but I think society also can affect physiological changes across generations. As Epigenetics shows how environment can affect gene expression. Behaviour is affected by physiological differences however patterns of behaviour, thought patterns and experiences (including our own choices), including cultural ones can also, in turn, cause physiological differences. Nature or nurture is not simply an either or, for different characteristics, including those associated with gender, but both.

Yes. That makes sense. The way genes are altered by environmental factors is really fascinating. I don't mean to give the impression it's all about choice. I do believe we are who we are. What is more, I think that there are some people who find conforming to gender norms difficult and that begs the question, do they need to? And I suppose, as you said earlier, in our society as it is at this moment in time (and context is always very imposrtant), it's difficult to understand how these binaries help anyone.

I didn't really mean to get into the whole nature nurture thing. I agree with everything you've written. I was just objecting to the way the intital video seemed to be suggesting that young people who accept gender fluidity blindly are foolish (perhaps they are) and that by extension, the whole area of identity politics is foolish (which it's not). I also object to arguments which rely on common sense and 'logic' as the clinchers in an argument. You have to think a little more than that if you're challenging cultural mores.

Running yes, there are some very difficult issues surrounding dissatisfaction with gender identity. Not least that under the new laws proposed it would be easily possible for individuals to exploit them in order to further oppress women. However I think dissatisfaction with gender identity can also be very genuine, not helped by rigid gender stereotypes. I don't know how we can be more inclusive, at the moment, with other vulnerable groups not suffering. Because women as well other vulnerable groups are still suffering and need to be protected by society.

Absolutely, we should challenge gender and I don't know where I stand on gender reassignment surgery. It feels like a very drastic measure to take and I can't understand what it must feel like to want to do it

But running surely this is the point. What is gender reassigment surgery? Having a flouncy blouse, a tampon or a football shirt surgically attached to you?

Sexual reassignment surgery makes more sense to me - at least trying to mimic the anatomy of the sex that one would prefer to be. (or is that just old fashined now?)

What is all this gender bollocks? It is nothing but a function of the sex that you are born.

Not finished it yet but this is a very interesting debate about identity politics

An interesting article, focusing on the new gender identities.

www.feministcurrent.com/2017/07/28/special-millennials-special-please-tell-im-special/

Great article VestalVirgin

I find the whole gender identity argument is a series of contradictions. Trans activists say gender is a social construct, so they can freely identify as male or female at will. This makes no sense at all, gender isn't a tangible or real thing, but a concept. As far as I understand it's not a choice but a complex interaction of biology and social conditioning placed upon as male or female from birth. You can't on an individual level just choose ( that's not a social construct, it's an individual one in your head). It's not an optional thing, if it were I think women would have opted out of oppression years ago!
Then it seems that they have confused gender with sex, a biological fact, which apparently is now optional too.

I think we're screwed as a society when we are made to accept lies as truth. The censorship of reality is extremely worrying. I wonder what is driving the push behind this.