Feminism and Drag Queens

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I was just wondering if anyone else shared the same opinion as me and this article;

www.feministcurrent.com/2014/04/25/why-has-drag-escaped-critique-from-feminists-and-the-lgbtq-community/

I've always been uncomfortable with drag, but it's got worse recently as shows like RuPaul's drag race have started gaining widespread acclaim. I'll add as a disclaimer that this is nothing to do with homophobia.

Thoughts?

What does "acting like a woman" even mean?? Women are so multifaceted, so complex, so VAST IN NUMBERS, that it would be impossible to reduce their behaviours to a set of stereotypes. Drag queens know this - that's why they mimic the pop culture stereotype of feminine behaviour, both to celebrate it and to hold it up as exactly what it is: a fucking stereotype

I note the universal condemnation of Rachel Dolezal and her attempt to explore what she felt were the black elements of her personality and compare that to the silence around drag etc. I don't get it

She was appropriating a black identify permanently and lying about it. None of the drag performers we have been discussing are doing that whether it is Mrs Brown or RuPaul's queens.

Most drag queens only mimic older females who are seen as hilarious/sad in their attempt to retain femininity. The jokes, the dress, the act is just smutty and disrespectful.

This is what I don't like about dames - but the drag race I saw, the winner was 23! As I've said though, I've never seen drag in real life, only on RuPaul's drag race - and the only thing that made me wince (and do soundly disapprove of) during that was them using the word 'fishy' to describe a queen who looked like an actual woman.

Perhaps it's as simple as the fact that Mrs Brown is imitating a normal woman in every day dress, like me (OK, I don't dress like that, but my nans did), and that hits home more than a man dressing up as a woman dressing up in high fashion. Perhaps it's as selfish as that for me?

Drag queens and pantomime Dames are entirely separate things though - different audiences (gay nightclubs vs bawdy seaside or xmas panto/ shit tv) as well as having different aims - performance art and alternative comedy vs cheap laughs.

I note that most drag queens are gay, whereas most pantomime dames are straight men, and their audiences are likewise mostly gay vs straight.

Conflating things here but the men wanting to use women's facilities are also claiming that they are permanently female.

yes, you're conflating things. I thought we were talking about drag queens?

Why does every discussion around here eventually descend into an argument about transsexuals and women's bathrooms? It's like he mumsnet version of Godwin's law.

This is so interesting. My kids watch these (awful!) YouTube videos by two American lads called Collins Key and Devon Key. They do all sorts of hilarious (eye roll) things like eat sour sweets or play Pie Face.

Yesterday they were watching one where the boys put make-up on and false eyelashes and painted their nails. My kids were in hysterics and it really, really pissed me off. I couldn't quite articulate why, though. I pointed out that I have no idea how to put on false eyelashes and asked them if I did would it be funny and the kids looked at me as if I was mad.

I quite like drag and agree it's more about mocking masculinity than femininity. I like how they don't pretend to be women.

I loathe Mrs Brown's Boys. If the humour isn't that he is dressed as a woman, then I don't understand why a woman can't play that part.

I love drag - and I don't think it's offensive in any way, shape or form. There are some stunningly beautiful drag queens and I think it's great that there can be beautiful drag queens. It's not about making fun of femininity; it's more of a mock on masculinity, if anything, and I'd say it's a reflection on the burgeoning acceptance for genderfluid dressing.

I'd say that Violet Chachki is one of the most beautiful queens, and she's genderfluid out of drag. It's not about her mocking women; it's about looking beautiful, and pushing fashion. Her vintage looks are amazing. And she is one tour (or at least, was...it might be over) with female burlesque performer Dita Von Teese, so her drag can easily integrate with a female performers show.

On a side note, I also love to see men in a position to wear makeup more freely. Let's face it, we don't see many men in makeup. I've seen a handful out and about, but that's it. I love seeing people like the 18 year old James Charles, on youtube, making makeup acceptable for men. There's got to be loads of teenage males who would otherwise be struggling with whether they can or can't, and seeing someone in the public eye wearing something that isn't 'for their gender' has to be helpful.
It's about empowering men to be more than what masculinity expects them to be.

Only because you said RD was permanently claiming black identity in contrast to drag. Some drag queens are also claiming female identity. That's the reason I mentioned it.

Even when they are not I don't get why it's funny. It always makes me feel uncomfortable and I guess it's because they are channelling a comedy version of me. I wouldn't do that to men , gay men, black people. Not sure why it's funny or acceptable.

But I am all for men being able to explore all aspects of their personality in what they wear, how they behave etc. Just don't impersonate women.

If the men were wearing make-up, heels and still calling themselves by male names, I wouldn't see an issue.

But the joke is that they're women with (usually) sexually suggestive, female names.

Women don't need to have traditionally female names, but it is a marker for someone of the female sex - much, much more than wearing a feather boa is.

I think the naming of the character is what bothers me. It makes womanhood into a joke.

Mrs Brown is a character created and played by the writer, Brendan O'Carroll. It's quite common for comedians to create an entire persona, often originating and developed from short skits in stand-up, rather than writing a script then casting the part.

It's a bit like asking why Caroline Aherne couldn't have cast a real older woman to play Mrs Merton.

Well, as a female, I can't say for sure, but I think for some at least, separating it into a seperate 'character' makes it safer and more accessible. You're not saying 'I'm a lady' - you're saying "here is X, my creation". I think it was said that they don't want to look like actual women; they want to look like a painting of their ideal womanly form.

Ultimately, it's pretty harmless and you need never come across a drag queen unless you choose to go out of your way to watch one perform.

Some men are wearing makeup, heels, and calling themselves male names - but surely you can see how big a risk their putting themselves in, in terms of discrimination, abuse, threats...and that's an entirely different thing to drag anyway. There's a difference between a man dressing in a genderfluid manner, and a man dressing in drag. Some of them do both. But they aren't the same thing.

I don't really care about all the different aims and intentions and audiences and cultures and bla bla bla. It's all still womanface and women have the absolute right to be fucked off with the lot of it.

Why come on a discussion thread if not to debate the issue? What do you get out of simply asserting your opinion and saying you don't care about other arguments, without explaining why?

I don't see it as womanface because the kinds of things they wear don't apply to me or any other woman I know. Maybe they apply to Cher or other glam female entertainers - I suppose you'd have to ask them if they minded! They're recreating the pop culture stereotype of female stage performers - something I think has nothing to do with me as a woman in my day to day life.

Applebei, one of your argument seems to be that because what the drag artists are doing doesn't represent your experience of femininity, then it isnt offensive. That's a bit like saying that a black person won't be offended by a performance where someone spoke "jive" and used jazz hands whilst jumping really high, because that doesn't represent their experience of being black. It is about lampooning cultural signifiers, whether we agree if they are just our accurate. It just isn't cool.

There is a huge difference between boys wearing eyeliner to expand the cultural norms of what is socially acceptable for a man to do, and simultaneously projecting the message that they reject gender stereotypes. And the men who dress in "female" attire and makeup. They are reinforcing gender stereotypes and if performing a characature, mocking women.

It's more that I see the ultra-feminine, over-sexualised, glamorous stereotype of a woman as an imposition onto women's lives. We're sent the message that to be groomed and beautiful is the only way we're worthy of attention and desire as women. You can opt in or you can opt out, but both require quite a large amount of energy, either to pursue the societally acceptable "look" or not to conform to it.

Being ultra-glam in and of itself isn't damaging - it's the idea that we as women should be doing it that is. Doing makeup as artistry can be fun! Clothes can be fun! But because we're told that being attractive to men is the thing that we should all be striving for, fewer women pursue it as art than as a way to make themselves more acceptable to the patriarchy. Drag queens to me are taking these things and pursuing them outside of the patriarchal system of oppression, and that's quite inspiring to me.

I think that is a lovely, sweet and sanitised way to look at it!

I some think men appropriating the signifiers of feminine, exaggerating and lampooning them, could ever be considered a rejection of the patriarchal system, it massively positions women as a class who can be ridiculed!

The 80s boys who wore makeup and non conform hair, who didn't use style to describe their sexual orientation, because all the clothes were for all the people, they were doing it right.

I don't think men appropriating.... (Trying to cook and type!)

Well, thank you. I'm a fairly new drag fan but a longstanding rampant feminist and the relationship between the two is interesting to think about.

I have never seen a drag queen ridicule a women, but perhaps others have had different experiences. Panto dames, on the other hand...

A man who wears women's things is ridiculed in the patriarchy. Or even if they just "seem" slightly feminine. So drag queens going so OTT with it and celebrating it feels like a big "fuck you" to the patriarchy to me.

It's not drag queens who ridicule the feminine - it's the heteronormative patriarchy, those men (and sometimes women) who won't let their male kids play with dolls or wear a dress. Those are the men who say that to take on the signifiers associated with women is humiliating for a man.

Drag queens and pantomime Dames are entirely separate things though - different audiences (gay nightclubs vs bawdy seaside or xmas panto/ shit tv) as well as having different aims - performance art and alternative comedy vs cheap laughs.

This may be true of your experience, but obviously there is good panto, and crap performance art.

It's more that I see the ultra-feminine, over-sexualised, glamorous stereotype of a woman as an imposition onto women's lives

yes, I agree with this

It's a bit like asking why Caroline Aherne couldn't have cast a real older woman to play Mrs Merton

I'm trying to figure out why I didn't enjoy Mrs Merton, but didn't find her offensive, but don't enjoy Mrs Brown, and do find it offensive...

Ditto Pantomime dame and drag

Even when they are not I don't get why it's funny.

I don't find drag in and of itself funny - I can find the acts funny, but the fantastical dress doesn't actually amuse me - it's more like a beautiful costume on an acrobat - the acrobatics are the exciting bit, the costume is just something beautiful to look at while they're doing it.

But the joke is that they're women with (usually) sexually suggestive, female names.

I've pondered this a bit - I think the difference is that the sexually suggestive names are sexual suggestions where they are the object - I think this is a place where their being gay is different to if a straight man did it - if they're making a joke about swallowing, it's because it's aimed at themselves, not at them doing it to someone else.

It's all still womanface and women have the absolute right to be fucked off with the lot of it

But Mrs Brown by the sheer ordinariness of the character is far worse than the OTT drag queens.

It's a bit like asking why Caroline Aherne couldn't have cast a real older woman to play Mrs Merton

I didn't find Mrs Merton in the least bit funny and tbh a bit offensive. Not as much as Mrs Brown but I definitely failed to see the funny side.

Massively simplistic but I'm wondering why I don't like the idea of "womanface" - I don't want to be told by anyone that we have any one look/ideals to aspire to, so the idea of "womanface" seems sinister. If we're going to free ourselves of what women should be, we have to allow the same for men. That will include time where it feels like a messy crossover, but I'd rather go that way than be told only women can look glamorous, wear makeup etc. That feels like you're saying I have to look glamorous to be a proper female. It feels like two steps from telling me not to wear trousers maybe, to put my hair in rollers? I feel I can't be territorial on something that I've seen as oppressive?

I like drag as it brazenly skips into what society has told us is female or male, it's part of a trend I feel I benefit from. If they didn't use female names (and lots don't now - Bob the Drag Queen, Derrick Berry, Milk), would it make you more comfortable? And getting rid of the fish references? (Which is frowned upon in London and NY now) ... suppose the q is what makes us women? The dresses? Make up? When their acts reference them as male, where is the lampooning of women? (Genuine q - I know shoddy old school acts are atrocious and misogynistic like any bad comedy etc) it feels like they're saying "yes I look ridiculous like a man dressing as a woman...but these looks are what I like and screw the idea of what a man should be"

Ugh I'm bad at expressing it maybe

Maybe I've just seen more of the young acts where they wear what they like (glamorous stuff) without ever referencing women, I don't know

It's a weird one. I don't like drag queens because I think they're taking the piss out of women. I hate the horrible names they use like Panti Bliss, vomit. However I don't feel the same way about men like Grayson Perry who dress in Women's clothes but are still behaving as themselves.