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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Pelvic Exams on unconsenting anaesthetised women

113 replies

Datun · 23/07/2017 06:33

This article claims that pelvic exams are routinely being done at University hospitals in America, on unconsenting women.

They use the general consent form as permission for students studying gynaecology.

The woman in the article said she had to explicitly say before she went under anaesthetic that no pelvic exams were to be performed on her.

It's made me feel a bit ill, to be honest. But I'm wondering if this is general knowledge?

Are there any doctors/HCPs who can shed any light on whether this is routinely practised in the UK?

www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2003/05/10/practice-vs-privacy-on-pelvic-exams/4e9185c4-4b4c-4d6a-a132-b21b8471da58/?utm_term=.a03a65c12880

This woman (link below) is making a documentary on it to raise awareness.

fiscal.ifp.org/project.cfm/26/?inf_contact_key9471ea02833605c7aa79c134ed1ecddd30ce4046b28fb

OP posts:
Batteriesallgone · 27/07/2017 22:32

You know, this is going to piss off all the medics on here, but fuck it: this is part of the institutionalised abuse of women that has been normal in medicine until very, very recently

I would agree with this but also say this abuse is still happening. As you say, a quick look at many birth threads will reveal attitudes and practices that would be abuse in any other setting.

wewentoutonsunday · 30/07/2017 09:47

Could this have happened to me? I had laser surgery for hpv 11-12 years ago.

And would I be able to find out either way?

Datun · 31/07/2017 01:24

wewentoutonsunday

I'm sure it didn't happen to you. As previous posters have said, it has been rare for some time, certainly as recently as 11 years ago.

OP posts:
MaximilianNero · 31/07/2017 08:00

I graduated medical school recently, and there was a strong culture of consent at all the hospitals I trained at, and from the medical school. I did one vaginal exam on a woman in theatre with her consent. I went alone to ask her consent beforehand, made it clear she shouldn't feel she needed to agree, but she immediately agreed and I added it to the consent form which she signed again. I was asked if I had consent and the consent form was checked in theatre before I examined her.

You know, this is going to piss off all the medics on here
What pisses me off is the current situation described in America and the way Medicine has and still does treat women sometimes. I might be a medic, but I'm also a woman (and a patient)!

JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff · 31/07/2017 20:07

Max I am really glad you came on here and said that. I have to do with urologists and one in particular is amazing - but some are really just misogynist dinosaurs and it gets me down. It is really useful to remember that NAMALT - not all medics are like that Wink

Hotheadwheresthecoldbath · 01/08/2017 09:20

This used to happen 30 years or so ago but was challenged by Nursing staff even then when Consultant surgeons thought they were God's.I haven't seen it happen since(even in major London teaching hospitals).I think most medical students would would be horrified at the idea nowadays.
Consent forms do not imply consent for unnecessary examinations of any kind and if attempted would be halted immediately.

GetYourHandsOffMyVagina · 16/01/2020 09:52

UK legislation is clear; performing internal / pelvic examinations on an unconscious woman is sexual assault. The Sexual Offences Act 2003 Part 1 Sexual Offences Section 2 Assault by penetration reads:
(1)A person (A in this instance the medical student) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina or anus of another person (B in this instance the female patient) with a part of his body or anything else,
(b) the penetration is sexual,
(c)B does not consent to the penetration, and
(d)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
(2)Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.
(3)Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.
(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life.
Read it here www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/part/1

If women patients are not aware and so do not consent to medical students inserting their hands into their vagina and anus to practice pelvic examinations, they have been sexual assaulted with the willing collusion, co-operation, enablement and encouragement of every NHS employee and others present in that operating theatre and the theatre suite. This amounts to Joint Enterprise. Read the CPS Guidance here www.cps.gov.uk/sexual-offences

So are women patients still being subjected to Sexual Assault by Penetration in UK NHS hospitals? Yes. NHS researchers have published recent studies on exactly this practice.

In December 2018 Armitage & Cahill at St Michaels Hospital University of Bristol reported that “Undergraduate medical students often struggle to gain satisfactory competence levels in intimate examination” and asked “What factors increase the likelihood of a woman allowing a student to perform an intimate examination?” The report concluded that “Women's willingness to agree to vaginal examination is influenced by several student-related factors, some modifiable.”
Read it here www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29385938

If Bristol women are still saying NO in 2018, just exactly how do medical students practice “intimate examinations” without it becoming Sexual Assault by Penetration?

In 2013 Carson-Stevens et al at Cardiff and Bangor Universities published “Framing patient consent for student involvement in pelvic examination” in the BMJ Journal of Medical Ethics. He reports that, “Patient consent has been formulated in terms of radical individualism rather than shared benefits. Medical education relies on the provision of patient consent to provide medical students with the training and experience to become competent doctors. Pelvic examination represents an extreme case in which patients may legitimately seek to avoid contact with inexperienced medical students particularly where these are male. Potentially coercive practices of framing of the decision by senior doctors were also reported. Participants outlined strategies they adopted to circumvent patients’ reasons for refusal. In the absence of a clear ethical model, coercion appears likely.
Read it here jme.bmj.com/content/39/11/676 & last modified on 8 January 2020 here orca.cf.ac.uk/110181/

In 2011 Rees & Monrouxe at the University of Dundee College of Medicine, Dentistry and Nursing reported on “medical students' explanations of their behaviour when instructed to observe or perform intimate examinations or procedures without valid patient consent.” “112 involved dilemmas associated with intimate examinations. Of these, 63% (n=71) described dilemmas which came about because students were instructed to observe or perform intimate examinations or procedures without valid consent. A total of 82% (n=58) involved students complying with instructions... Despite clear policies at each school, students in all schools observed or performed intimate examinations or procedures without having gained valid consent from the patient.”
Read it here www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21251051 & www.researchgate.net/publication/49770695_Medical_students_learning_intimate_examinations_without_valid_consent_A_multicentre_study

In 2009 Martyn & O’Connor at University Hospital Galway reported that, “The teaching of pelvic examinations to medical students is a challenge faced by most Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. It is an embarrassing and potentially painful procedure for the woman while she is awake. Elective gynaecological procedures under general anaesthesia are often seen as an ideal opportunity to teach pelvic examinations with least disturbance to the patient”... and that “In our audit we found that 26% of women did not consent to a pelvic examination by a student while asleep.” Read it here www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20108806

In 2018 my partner had elective surgery under general anaesthetic at Nottingham City Hospital. She was forced to have male students present during her surgery who were there to practice pelvic examinations on her. She found this out from an NHS employee at the Trust when she met the employee by chance in 2019. In 2019 I visited my GP on an unrelated matter and agreed to a medical student from the University of Nottingham medical school being present. I asked that medical student about my partner’s experience. They replied that medical students are in operating theatres all the time, that patients are not informed, cannot consent and that medical students names are routinely NOT included on the theatre record of those present, and if someone enters the operating theatre AFTER the patient is anaesthetized, the name of that person is never entered onto the theatre record either. Because of the WHO Sign In, everyone in that operating theatre knows that a student is present and why they are present. Is this how patient consent is circumnavigated at Nottingham City Hospital? If so, and my partner’s experience is valid, women having elective surgery at Nottingham City Hospital are not protected from Sexual Assault by medical students.

The Sexual Assault by Penetration of women elective surgical patients in NHS hospital operating theatres has been perpetrated by NHS employees for decades. There is no evidence that it is not happening today. In Manchester a couple of hundred men were sexually assaulted using amnesiac “date-rape” drugs, and Greater Manchester Police set up special telephone hotlines staffed with specially trained counsellors following huge resource commitment to investigate and prosecute ONE offender; thousands of women elective patients are sexually assaulted by NHS medical students in NHS hospitals, and everyone concerned just looks the other way.

This issue, MumsNetters, demands your immediate and ongoing focus. No-one else is going to protect women having elective surgery in NHS hospitals from routine Sexual Assault.

Patte · 16/01/2020 11:46

Not quite the same thing, but I think it's similar enough to be relevant - a couple of years ago someone I know was given a smear test while under GA (for something unrelated) without having been asked for consent. She was distressed by it.

JustHereWithMyPopcorn · 16/01/2020 11:49

I also feel sick reading this. There is no way on earth that I would consent to an intimate exam while I was unconscious. I would want to be awake to know exactly what they were doing for my own sanity!

When I had my DC 15 years ago I had the most awful community midwife with no interpersonal skills at all. I had stitches after an episiotomy and when she visited me at home she brought a young man with her and at no point introduced him to me. She did a general check on the baby and then said she'd like to check my stitches. I didn't really want her to as they were fine but thought I had better comply so headed upstairs for some privacy and to be able to lie down. As she followed me she called this man to come too. I stopped on the stairs and said 'I'm sorry but no, who is this person?' to which she said 'oh hes a student', so I said to him 'I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude but I don't agree to you coming up', the midwife got very flustered and cross with me stating that he needed to learn but I stood firm and said to him it wasn't anything personal. He was actually very apologetic and did not have a problem at all, she was a complete bully. The thing is, if she had introduced him on arrival and asked for consent properly I may have been more open to the idea but there was no question in her mind that she didn't need my consent.

Patte · 16/01/2020 11:50

Should add that of course it would be wrong whether or not she was distressed, but it was really horrible - this older lady really upset by something that had been done to her without her consent while she was vulnerable.

Barracker · 16/01/2020 12:06

I'm struggling to think about this.
In 1992 I had an investigation into blood in my urine, which involved being given a general anaesthetic. The investigation was to look into my urethra and kidney function, but should not have included any examination of my vagina, cervix or uterus.
I think I remember being asked if medical students could be present during the investigation, during which I would be unconscious. And I think I remember wanting to be brave, and helpful and saying yes. I was young and idealistic. I was also a virgin.
I have a sinking feeling about this.

sarvangasana · 16/01/2020 12:57

I'm feeling awful about this too. I had two major gynae ops in the 1990s, before I had children, and I was not told or asked about any vaginal examinations, although I was asked about students being present - to which I consented, being the helpful female. It had never crossed my mind as the ops were on my abdomen to think that this may have happened without my consent as they were gynae ops. I was generally treated appallingly by the medical profession from my teens to my forties for having medical issues relating to my sex. This just adds to the ways in which women are treated as other.

Datun · 16/01/2020 12:58

GetYourHandsOffMyVagina

After I started this thread, I was somewhat reassured by the number of people who said this was a thing of the past, in the UK, at least.

I feel a bit sick to think it isn't.

In 2009 Martyn & O’Connor at University Hospital Galway reported that, “The teaching of pelvic examinations to medical students is a challenge faced by most Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. It is an embarrassing and potentially painful procedure for the woman while she is awake.

It's an awful lot worse to be sexually assaulted whilst you're unconscious. What a ridiculous comment to make.

Would any woman, who objected on the grounds of embarrassment, say but it's fine if I'm unconscious?

Furthermore, how is a student meant to understand how to do a comfortable, correct pelvic exam, unless the woman can let them know if they're hurting her?

It's all kinds of fucked up.

I'm sure there are women who would consent. Who are relaxed about this sort of thing.

It seems as though being unconscious is desirable? For fucks sake.

OP posts:
Datun · 16/01/2020 12:59

Barracker and sarvangasana

💐

OP posts:
lady69 · 16/01/2020 13:14

I work in theatres. Nothing happens without explicit patient consent. Nothing. Procedures are very strict, consent, world health organisation checks etc. This is in a NHS Trust.

GetYourHandsOffMyVagina · 16/01/2020 13:20

Read the reports, from NHS trusts, from NHS medical students. It's happening within the NHS.

Datun · 16/01/2020 13:25

The NHS has a policy that if a woman object to a man in her female ward, she is the one who needs to be removed, not him.

They also have the policy that wards should be separated officially by gender. Whilst confirming that gender does not mean sex. They wanted to keep this secret from everybody.

OP posts:
TheTigersBride · 16/01/2020 18:23

It is an embarrassing and potentially painful procedure for the woman while she is awake

It's an awful lot worse to be sexually assaulted whilst you're unconscious. What a ridiculous comment to make

Would any woman, who objected on the grounds of embarrassment, say but it's fine if I'm unconscious?

I don't see what's so odd about that. I have had 2 operations under general anaesthetic. I wasn't asked about this.
I am not sure if I would agree if I were awake but under a general anaesthetic- yes that would be less embarrassing.

allmywhat · 16/01/2020 18:42

It's an awful lot worse to be sexually assaulted whilst you're unconscious. What a ridiculous comment to make.

If you read that comment in context, it's fine.
The authors of the paper are looking at what factors influence whether women give consent to internal examinations while unconscious. Their recommendations are about innocuous, non-coercive ways that medical students can improve their chances of a patient consenting to an unconscious examination - dressing smartly and showing an actual interest in the patient.

Am very surprised the paper was quoted out of context like that. I'd personally never consent to an internal examination while unconscious - but that paper absolutely isn't advocating nonconsensual examinations and the quote is misleading.

Datun · 16/01/2020 18:43

I am not sure if I would agree if I were awake but under a general anaesthetic- yes that would be less embarrassing.

Really?

So when you woke up you didn't know who had touched you, who had put their fingers in you, what they had done, or said??

OP posts:
FixTheBone · 16/01/2020 20:26

@GetYourHandsOffMyVagina

I've worked in the NHS for 25 years, I have never seen, heard or read of this happening in all of that time. I'm in an operating theatre at least 3 times per week.

There may be rogue dinosaurs that still 'teach' their students in this way, and they should be held to task, but your post makes it seem like this is routine, commonplace and pervasive, when it is anything but. It is the kind of scaremongering that damages patient confidence and invokes unnecessary anxiety for people who are at their most vulnerable.

Every consent form I have ever signed has 2 pages, one for the details of the procedure and a second one full of blurb, the second one explicitly states in one of those paragraphs :

"No procedure or intervention other than those described will be undertaken apart from in unforeseen circumstances, and only when medically necessary and in your best interests"

Consent and the legal basis of informed consent, has been taught since at least 2000 on the medical undergraduate curriculum and I do not know of any institution where those principles are routinely ignored.

TheTigersBride · 16/01/2020 20:51

Really?

So when you woke up you didn't know who had touched you, who had put their fingers in you, what they had done, or said??

Yes really -In an operating theatre with surgeons, anaethetist, nurses present what do you think is going to happen?

StillWeRise · 16/01/2020 20:58

if unconsented examinations were taking place, that would be assault, but not sexual assault, the sexual offences act states that the penetration must be sexual and that is not the case when a student is learning eg to palpate the uterus
there's no need to freak women out with remarks like 'it seems as though being unconscious is desirable'
no woman is in theatre under GA for fun, maybe listen to the people with years of experience and not make women's fears worse

AngelsSins · 16/01/2020 22:10

Yes really -In an operating theatre with surgeons, anaethetist, nurses present what do you think is going to happen?

Ha! In the context of this thread, that is a bonkers comment!

moonsmarshmellow · 16/01/2020 22:16

mobile.twitter.com/susan_bewley/status/1216042957318565889

I know this isn’t strictly the same thing but interesting and a very recent report that is currently being discussed. An annual 1.4m unindicated, unnecessary, vaginal examinations on US teenagers reported. It seems over there it’s the norm for young girls to see a gynaecologist from mid-teens and many are given a routine vaginal exam for.. well, no particular good reason really. I think this really shows some of the massive issues with female healthcare, power dynamics, consent and being properly informed. It’s almost like it’s a way of grooming women to be submissive and unquestioning with gynae care right from a young, and shows entitlement over girls and women’s bodies by medics.

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